Ric Gillespie & David Cundall

[Noha307]

I've been holding this one off for a few weeks, but my hand has been forced by a recent interview in an L.A. Times article on the Spitfire effort in Burma:

"When someone says there's 15, then 30, then 60 planes, it looks like a case of a fish that keeps getting bigger," said Ric Gillespie, executive director of a Delaware-based nonprofit group that excavates historic aircraft. "I hope they're right. But this smells."

Gillespie, who's searched 25 years for the wreckage of aviator Amelia Earhart's plane, which disappeared in 1937 over the Pacific, said transparency is essential in high-risk search projects. Cundall's quest has been characterized more by excuses, share sales and claims than by evidence, he said.

Gillespie said his group had used ground-penetrating radar and metal detectors as well, and while Pacific island and Burmese soil differ, scans are often inconclusive and frustrating. Cundall raises doubts because he has often presented his findings with great certainty, Gillespie said.

So, to my argument. I realized about a month ago that Mr. Gillespie and Mr. Cundall seem - at least to me - to be very similar. After thinking on it for a while, I came up with a list of a number of characteristics they or their most notable efforts share:

• Both face significant, legitimate concerns/criticisms about the theories behind their efforts. (This is the most significant comparison as it seems to me, as well as the initial comparison I realized.)
• Both are attempting to discover missing aircraft. (Both of which are roughly in the same area of the world and from roughly the same time period.)
• Both have significant financial backing and/or resources. (Both on their own and in the organizations they have been involved with.)
• Both are experts at drumming up substantial media publicity, or have been involved with groups that do so.
• Both have done significant background research into their respective topics.
• Both have some sort of background in similar projects.
• Both efforts have received government backing/approval/blessings. (Gillespie: U.S. government; Cundall: Burmese & British governments)
• Both believe sincerely in what they are doing.

I find everything in the above list to be a true fact of the matter, if you disagree, please feel free to respectfully tell me otherwise. I have tried to do my best to be fair to both parties, but I do not begin to pretend that this comparison is not controversial. However, I believe that a responsible debate can be had on this topic. My only request is that any snarky remarks or otherwise unhelpful comments remain absent. Or as I put it in an earlier thread:

...sarcastic one-liners don't really help.

[PinecastleAAF]

I agree of course there are some obvious similarities. One bullet you left off is that neither man has recovered an aircraft yet as far as I know. Then again neither have I.

I think RG makes a valid point here:

Gillespie said his group had used ground-penetrating radar and metal detectors as well, and while Pacific island and Burmese soil differ, scans are often inconclusive and frustrating. Cundall raises doubts because he has often presented his findings with great certainty, Gillespie said.

I saw a quote attributed to Cundall that said something like "we have equipment that can detect Spitfires at 30 feet but not metal cables at 10ft." I wasn't sure what to make of that.

It is amusing to see RG's quotes on the subject. Here's hoping for a crate of freckle cream still preserved in cosmoline.

[hang the expense]

If it sounds too good to be true then it usually is the case.Oh and I found a B-17 in a lake just in case you're wondering.

[JFS61]

One bullet you left off is that neither man has recovered an aircraft yet as far as I know.

And neither will.

[Wildchild]

If it sounds too good to be true then it usually is the case.Oh and I found a B-17 in a lake just in case you're wondering.

Hey I found a buried B-17

[Iclo]

hum, I doubt that TIGHAR is well placed to comment on the effort of Cundall...
Honestly, TIGHAR founds nothing, has the same "big noise" communication and for me is less less serious.

So I think that Gillespie losts a valuable occasion to keep his mouth closed.

I have more respect for David Cundall who looks to search really for these Spit, that TIGHAR who looks more to organize expensive hollidays under the cover of their "search"

Just for remember, TIGHAR has a P-38 on a beach of England to retrieve since a long long time....

[jmkendall]

Cables and Aircraft.....finding "metal" underground.

The best way to put it is that it is a matter of attenuation. There are issues of depth, power, and eliminating ground clutter from smaller buried objects. If you're looking for a large metal object far underground you don't want to be bothered by small metal objects in between. The machines you use for this purpose don't give you a "picture" of what is under the earth, just an indication.

Oh, and Mr Cundell is putting a lot of his own money on the table for this. He stands to lose a lot personally. I for one respect that.

[Xrayist]

Well, reading Ric's quote about something smelling...I have to agree, he should be considered the expert in that department! Maybe instead of Spitfires that are buried there, it is Amelia Earhart's plane and he is jealous........

[SaxMan]

Sometimes the best way to get back into the spotlight is to grab someone else's coattails. Or, as the saying goes, there is no such thing as bad publicity. It happens all the time in politics. When someone thinks they are losing their share of the limelight, they do a "name drop" that they know will cause controversy and bring their name back into the conversation.

Whether Mr. Cundall recovers any Spitfires. For better or for worse, Cundall is the "man of the hour" in the world of aircraft recovery, and it seems Gillespie's comments are a "look at me" moment.

IMHO, the people who truly deserve the recognition are those who toil to restore existing airframes to make sure they were preserved. They do it because they love what they do, not because they love the spotlight. They often have to do their work on budgets that probably wouldn't even buy a days' lunch for these well-publicized and financed crews.

[PeterA]

Perhaps worth noting that David Cundall has been in Burma since the first week in January.

Still a way to run on this.

We are in regular communication. On balance, I think he will find something.

PeterA

[tom d. friedman]

i put no stock in gillespie's pursuits or credentials. he is a grandstander, & the "elmer gantry" of aviation history. as to mr cundall, he is to new for me so i will give him the benefit of a doubt for now. tighar doesn't deliver anything but hype & "national enquirer" rag type headlines.

[PinecastleAAF]

Cables and Aircraft.....finding "metal" underground.

The best way to put it is that it is a matter of attenuation. There are issues of depth, power, and eliminating ground clutter from smaller buried objects. If you're looking for a large metal object far underground you don't want to be bothered by small metal objects in between. The machines you use for this purpose don't give you a "picture" of what is under the earth, just an indication.

I understand that I just thought that the search team would have also, which is one reason I was surprised at the quote. Maybe it was not accurate, iirc it was from one of the more poorly written pieces on the subject.

I find hope in the fact that Mr. Cundall could look for Spitfires for many more years and still not have as lousy a track record as RG does..........right now.

[43-2195]

AMEN Saxman. Think what could have been achieved if all TIGHAR's funds had been allocated to restoration. They would be a widely respected organisation. But, alas...

[Brenden S]

You will also be very surprised at what is not reported in the media too.

Edit
I retract my later statement that I made.

Last edited by Brenden S on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

[gary1954]

If it sounds too good to be true then it usually is the case.Oh and I found a B-17 in a lake just in case you're wondering.

Hey I found a buried B-17

D a m n.....I thought I thought I had that darn thing camoflaged pretty well...