Warbird Information Exchange

This was posted on Flying Magazine's website. It is a brief news story that law enforcement is detaining pilots upon arrival at their destinations, and searching their aircraft looking for drugs.

Feds Say: 'Pilots Have No Rights'
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/feds-say- ... -no-rights

This is a related story posted on theatlantic.com.

Annals of the Security State: More Airplane Stories
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... es/276018/

I'd think they would need probably cause to do that. However....down in the Caribbean it happens quite a bit if an aircraft fits a profile. The CG can do vessels under the guise of a safety inspection and to confirm hull ID numbers.

With aircraft the FAA can do a ramp check which a visual inspection of your aircraft and a check of your registration and airworthiness certificate at any time. The excuse is to enhance saftey for you.
They will issue you a condition notice on what they find for you to correct or ground you if they determine the A/C doesn't conform to its TCDS or they feel something is unsafe.
They can do all this while the Feds are on the way as an excuse or while your A/C is just tied down and your on vacation.
Local law enforcement actions could vary depending on location and which arm of the law is involved.
The article suggests that even local law is getting their instructions from the Feds of these incidents.

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Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!

That second link is beyond belief!
This stuff is getting a little weird.

Its funny seeing how people are all up in arms over this.

I am in my mid forties and can remember Customs and DEA doing this since I was in my early teens. Granted I live in South Texas so we saw more of this, but this is old news.

Seeing Citation 550s, King Airs and even P-3s following airplanes all over the place and into our airport happened (and still happens) all the time. Alot of time there would be a Blackhawk that would do the actual interdiction once the chase plane determined where the "bad guyz" were going to land.

Funny story (this is probably at least 20 years ago)....a lady I knew quite well worked cattle for her husband in a Super Cub. One time she was working cattle and would fly down low and push then pop up take a good look and then drop back down. Well, someone noticed this on the Aerostat radar and sent a P-3, that was working the border area, over to check out the airplane. About that time she broke off the chase and headed over to the airport to get some fuel. Well the P-3 followed her all the way to the airport and then performed a very low pass right over her as she landed. We were standing out on the ramp and witnessed the entire thing. Pretty awesome seeing a P-3 chase a Super Cub.

The only thing that has changed in all these years is that Customs merged with US Border Patrol and it is now one unit called Customs and Border Protection.

Nothing to see here...........move right along.

I understand ramp checks, but is there any provision that says you can request it be done by another FAA fed? Similar to a police officer legally having to call a second cop if you request it (idea is to ensure the cop is legit and not an impersonator)… Do you have to acquiesce to a ramp check at the moment it is requested? I’d be very interested in seeing what aviation or constitutional attorney would have to say on the subject. In my opinion, unless they have a warrant to search my aircraft, any contact or entry of the vehicle without my permission is a violation of my Fourth Amendment rights. I simply don’t buy that a legal deviation from a flight plan or legal, albeit irregular, VFR flying constitutes probable cause...

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Taylor Stevenson

These guys are not just ramp checking airplanes with their AR-15 in hand. They are tracking an airplane that has done something to get their attention and usually the feds are right in this case. Not all the time, but usually something is going on.

Like I said, this has been going on for more than 30 years and just now is making the news for some reason.

I understand the situation. My question was pointed at ramp checks in general... It was said that ramp checks were used as a front to initially search the aircraft while waiting for other "authorities" to show up... I am interested in ways to protect my right to private property. I get that "this has been going on for 30 years," but I was previously unaware of the feds "pulling over" pilots flying legally, so humor me if I ask a few educated questions.

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Taylor Stevenson

Reminds me of a ride on a Maryland National Guard UH-1 I took back in the late 90s. We took off from Edgewood Arsenal for a crew check flight (I was just taking a ride while I still could on a Huey) and landed on some commercial field God-Knows-where in the region after about 2 hours in the air. I needed a latrine quite badly (hadn't yet learned that drinking lots of fluids the day of a rotary-winged flight is never a good idea) and myself and a couple of people piled out looking for the men's room at the terminal while the crew got out to stretch.
The local Barney Fife showed up, out of his mind, that we had 'invaded' his airport! He said he was going to have us all arrested for bringing weapons onto a civilian flight line, even after I pointed out most of us (myself included) weren't armed at all.
The crew chief, a grizzled old E-8, said he'd talk to the cop. After we headed back to the Huey, he was still talking with him. We got in, the crew ran up the rotors, and the crew cheif srpinted for the bird with Barney hot on his heels. He'd told the cop that we were leaving and that we seriously outgunned him so he was welcome to try to stop us. We all laughed at the sight of the cop jumping up and down on the ramp, waving at us.
I never did hear whatever happened about that as I left the field as soon as I could after thanking the crew for the ride...

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Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

I think I would comply as nicely as I could. I do not think that these "ramp checks" are near as prevalent as the article makes it out to be. I know we (and the local police) get called about airplanes of interest all the time and again, its been going on for years without being a big deal.

Usually there is a reason why they want to talk to you. I bet the nice gentlemanly law abiding pilot in the article above did something interesting to peak the interest in the authorities. Betcha he saw something on the ground and checked it out and then had some fun flying low across the desert or something like that.

The articles are only showing one side of the story and as they say, there are always two sides. For the most part, the local authorities are just doing what has been asked of them by the feds. You will get a Barney every once in a while and have something like the above happen.

What hasn't been mentioned are any given States' aeronautics codes. They have much more teeth than the FAA. Get caught in TN operating without a required rating and the worst the FAA can achieve under administrative law is a sanction of revocation. That means you can re-apply after 12 mos.

If the FAA decides to hand that over to the State of TN for example, it's a felony and punishable for up to two years in prison. Big difference!

State's Aeronautic Codes (or a civil lawsuit) is much, much worse than the FAA could ever muster.

The Robin Fleming incident of 7-26-2012 comes to mind and the story can be found on AOPA's website. I think there is "a lot to see here" regarding this subject.

Surely, someone must have had a run-in with the law like my UH-1 episode with a warbird. I can imagine the locals going bonkers when seeing a airplane coming in with cooling jackets for the .50 cals out in the open...
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/January/10/Secret-no-fly-zone
I just read this, that poor guy really got the short end of the stick. He was told charges would dropped only if he promised not to seek anything against the cops who clearly broke mutiple justidictional boundries? I can't believe his lawyer was okay with that!

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Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

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45+47=Psalm 92:6

I'd like to weigh in. I've been a Law Enforcement Officer for the last 19 years with over half of that time being assigned to the Investigations Division investigating major crimes. I also personally know the pilot that was stopped and questioned and was told that very story by him.

With that being said, I am not a big fan of "wink and nod" Law enforcement. Everything L/E does SHOULD be governed by the rule of law. A big and most important part being the Constitution of the United States. And, in this case the 4th amendment! You have to ask yourself when did this contact by L/E stop being a consensual or enforcement stop, ie (ramp check) and become a detention of a law abiding citizen? If I was in his shoes it would have been when the first "ramp check" was completed and I truthfully answered all his questions. Free to go right? Should be! No probable cause? No Search Warrant? Answered all of your question? Excuse me Officer I have a dinner to get to! And, I'm sorry but you may not search my airplane and personal affects. I have done nothing wrong.

Detention by L/E is a matter of perception. L/E does not have to tell you, "you are not free to leave". Multiple L/E vehicles and Officers, some in SWAT gear, with a L/E plane flying over head might do the trick? Would you think you as a law abiding citizen could walk away at that point? It's like if I asked you to come down for an interview under you own free will and could leave at anytime BUT stand in front of the door. If you feel you ain't free to go than that is a detention, weather I say so or not!

I'm all for catching the bad guys and putting them away! That's how I've made my living for a long time. I just don't like to see laws and authority stretched to find a means to an ends. As a citizen of the United States you have every right to question why you are being stopped and under what authority. That's what makes us special.

If you can't tell I have a HUGE problem with the way this went down!

Heck, that could have been me or you flying from California to Oklahoma to have dinner with a friend?

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Ken Terpstra

Vice-President
Stockton Field Aviation Museum
PV-2D Harpoon 84062