Updates on Swoose and Belle?

[hang the expense]

#=3

[Warbird Kid]

Crazy question…

Could you take a B-17G model wing and center section, backdate it and build a brand new D rear fuselage and nose section? Essentially having the luxury of having a G model system but with the style and look of a D model.

[hang the expense]

IIRC that's what the swoose is.I believe she had her wings changed in panama CZ.I may be wrong.So yes to your question.

[Steve Nelson]

Maybe parts of the wings, but the nacelles, inboard sections and engines are still D-model. Here they are in storage at NMUSAF about five years ago. You can see the nacelle-mounted oil coolers, which were moved into the wing starting with the E (hence the lack of oil cooler intakes between the nacelles.) The cowls are also the earlier type with a separate nose ring. It wouldn't surprise me if the outboard panels were swapped for "G" units at some point in her long and colorful career though.











The Belle project is of course awesome, but I think I'll be even more jazzed to see The Swoose finished! A few years ago there was a group planning to recreate a B-17C/D based around G wings and forward fuselage parts, but I'm not sure if the project is still a going concern.

SN

[Pogo]

...I'll be even more jazzed to see The Swoose finished!

Yessir me too for sure!

A few years ago there was a group planning to recreate a B-17C/D based around G wings and forward fuselage parts, but I'm not sure if the project is still a going concern.

Great post Steve, thanks -- it's the sorta stuff that causes me to learn things. Also, I thought I had a vague recollection of such a group as you mention...

[hang the expense]

Maybe parts of the wings, but the nacelles, inboard sections and engines are still D-model. Here they are in storage at NMUSAF about five years ago. You can see the nacelle-mounted oil coolers, which were moved into the wing starting with the E (hence the lack of oil cooler intakes between the nacelles.) The cowls are also the earlier type with a separate nose ring. It wouldn't surprise me if the outboard panels were swapped for "G" units at some point in her long and colorful career though.











The Belle project is of course awesome, but I think I'll be even more jazzed to see The Swoose finished! A few years ago there was a group planning to recreate a B-17C/D based around G wings and forward fuselage parts, but I'm not sure if the project is still a going concern.

SN

Thanks for clearing that up for me.I had read that somewhere years ago and had never seen the wings until those pics you posted.AWESOME.Those are most definitely early wings.Thanks again.

[hang the expense]

Oh and the cowls are just beautiful.

[Chris Brame]

...I'll be even more jazzed to see The Swoose finished!

Yessir me too for sure!

A few years ago there was a group planning to recreate a B-17C/D based around G wings and forward fuselage parts, but I'm not sure if the project is still a going concern.

Great post Steve, thanks -- it's the sorta stuff that causes me to learn things. Also, I thought I had a vague recollection of such a group as you mention...

Check with DryMartini on that - it's sort of an offshoot of the folks working on Desert Rat/Tangerine.

[mustangdriver]

Swoose has B model wings

[Ed-Spectre]

I personally am not that concerned what kind of wings they put on it, just get it on display! We are loosing WWII veterans at an alarming rate and we owe them the opportunity to see their history before they pass. Aircraft such as Swoose and Flak Bait should have been done years ago, glad the AF Museum is pushing Swoose forward. I read an article years ago on the Smithsonian's restoration of their FW-190. It turned out fantastic looking, but it mentioned how tedious the restoration was because they cataloged every replacement part and stamped each replacement part before assembly. From a historian's perspective this is fantastic, but from folks who who would like to see these birds in one piece before they pass this lengthy process seems a bit like overkill. I for one would be tickled to see their collection assembled and displayed "as is", worry about an "Historically accurate" restoration later as time and funds permit.

[Pat Carry]

I personally am not that concerned what kind of wings they put on it, just get it on display! We are loosing WWII veterans at an alarming rate and we owe them the opportunity to see their history before they pass. Aircraft such as Swoose and Flak Bait should have been done years ago, glad the AF Museum is pushing Swoose forward. I read an article years ago on the Smithsonian's restoration of their FW-190. It turned out fantastic looking, but it mentioned how tedious the restoration was because they cataloged every replacement part and stamped each replacement part before assembly. From a historian's perspective this is fantastic, but from folks who who would like to see these birds in one piece before they pass this lengthy process seems a bit like overkill. I for one would be tickled to see their collection assembled and displayed "as is", worry about an "Historically accurate" restoration later as time and funds permit.

"Flak Bait" in my opinion should be put back together again and with very little restortaion and placed on display as soon as they can. It's history deserves a place of honor. The Swoose is going to be a 10 year job so very few if any WW2 vets will see it. I'm beginning to wonder if I will live long enough to see it on display. This is no way criticism of the folks working in the restoration area at the museum. They have many projects going all the time. They do fantaistic work there and I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the Belle finished in the not to distant future.

[hang the expense]

I personally am not that concerned what kind of wings they put on it, just get it on display! We are loosing WWII veterans at an alarming rate and we owe them the opportunity to see their history before they pass. Aircraft such as Swoose and Flak Bait should have been done years ago, glad the AF Museum is pushing Swoose forward. I read an article years ago on the Smithsonian's restoration of their FW-190. It turned out fantastic looking, but it mentioned how tedious the restoration was because they cataloged every replacement part and stamped each replacement part before assembly. From a historian's perspective this is fantastic, but from folks who who would like to see these birds in one piece before they pass this lengthy process seems a bit like overkill. I for one would be tickled to see their collection assembled and displayed "as is", worry about an "Historically accurate" restoration later as time and funds permit.

"Flak Bait" in my opinion should be put back together again and with very little restortaion and placed on display as soon as they can. It's history deserves a place of honor. The Swoose is going to be a 10 year job so very few if any WW2 vets will see it. I'm beginning to wonder if I will live long enough to see it on display. This is no way criticism of the folks working in the restoration area at the museum. They have many projects going all the time. They do fantaistic work there and I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the Belle finished in the not to distant future.

Thank GOD the usafm got the plane otherwise we wouldn't live long enough to see it completed.I first read about the swoose when I was 10 years old and I'm 54 now.I know there are others that have been waiting longer than me.Hang in there gang, we'll make it.

[Steve Nelson]

"Flak Bait" from what I understand is largely unmolested and could (should!) be assembled and diplayed with minimal conservation work. "The Swoose" on the other hand suffered substantial deterioration over the years, and a total restoration is the only real option. Fortunately she's pretty much "all there," although it will require some sourcing of parts and scratchbuilding to return her to bomber configuration (assuming that's still the plan.) They're off to a good start..the ventral "gun tub" looks great. Hopefully once the Belle is done, the restoration folks can carry the momentum and experience into the Swoose project, and it will move along faster (I'm not saying they're moving too slowly on the Belle..far from it. I appreciate that they're taking their time to do it right.)

SN

[Left Seat]

Mustang driver is right about the Swoose's wings. In January 1943, "[General] Brett's pilot at the time, Captain Jack Crane, located a pair of [new] B-17B wing panels [at Albrook Field's Panama Air Depot] and the aircraft was rebuilt with much of the equipment brought up to "B-17E standard", sans the gun turrets. -Scott Thompson Final Cut 4th ed.

The Swoose is a real conundrum.

Talk about cobbled together.

How do you restore the thing?

It's got the salvaged tail section off of 40-3091, incorrect inner wing panels, upgraded B-17E plumbing, rotted & deteriorated executive interior, and some really cool faded Alclad skin panels showing flags of the places the plane has visited and the crew that flew with General Brett.

By the way, someone reinstalled the bath tub turret without asking for opinions. ["Hey everyone...I oiled the grand piano without anyone asking me" -Dennis the Menace].

The Swoose was a real sore subject for me for a long time.

Originally, I thought it should have been restored to the highly polished, "speed record breaking", leather paneled, executive command plane of General Brett, fresh out of the "Canal Depot".

But, it is also the same plane that got lost with Lyndon Johnson on board.

It is also the first and only surviving B-17 that ran a mission on Dec. 8, 1941, immediately after the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

"You can only be original once" ...so which version is original?

For my 2 cents, I think it should be restored and finished as delivered in May 1941 by the 19th Bombardment Group to 11th Bombardment Group, 14th Bombardment Squadron at Hickham Field. It should represent what we entered the war with. Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby (or even more fitting Bockscar) is its bookend, the end of the war. A photo taken in route to Clark Field on September 9, 1941 depicts "Ole Betsy" in bare aluminum with red & white stripes and number 21 painted on the tail. It should be restored with a full military interior and armament for that period. It should also be left with what ever combat damage repairs that have survived (leave the patches please).

As a concession, even though it is incorrect for that period, I think it should have the Swoose artwork on the starboard side, aft of the door, where it is currently located. "Ole Betsy" could also be painted on, provided that it was originally on the plane in the first place.

After all, it is still "Ole Betsy", the Swoose, and General Brett's plane

General Brett's executive interior could be restored and installed in a cut-away, mock-up of the interior. The Alclad panels with flags and names of the crew could displayed nearby in a similar way... just not on the plane.

The NMUSAF seems to has been very thorough and careful with the Memphis Bell. The "Bell" is more of a conservation, than a restoration. I would hope they would be as careful with the Swoose.

Last edited by Left Seat on Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

[hang the expense]

I'd have to say I agree. Make the bird as she was on the 8th of December 41 right up to when she was repaired.