Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Fri Jun 20, 2025 6:13 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:15 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm
Posts: 2923
Linked from the FlyPast Forum:

Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:36 pm
Posts: 138
Location: Portage, MI
Sorry...missed the link. So does this mean that the FM-2 being restored by the Airzoo is the last aircraft to be recovered from the lake in the foreseeable future? Or was there another recovery that I'm not aware of?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:03 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:11 pm
Posts: 1559
Location: Damascus, MD
It would seem that the Navy could make a few bucks by selling the salvage rights to the remaining Lake Michigan birds to private parties, who would take the time to recover and restore the aircraft without the "backlog" that current exists in Pensacola. However, that would be the logical and sensible move. When it comes to preserving its history, the Navy doesn't seem be either logical or sensible. For an organization that admits it has made mistakes in the past (namely CV-6 Enterprise) and prides itself on history and tradition, they sure do have a tendency to keep making the same mistakes over and over again and let otherwise historic ships and planes slip away that were tangible parts of the Navy tradition.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:26 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:37 pm
Posts: 1380
I checked to see what Wiki said about the topic of aircraft wrecks. Below are a few select paragraphs. Take them for what they are worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_archaeology

Here is The Sunken Military Aircraft Act. I would think this would be the first one to have your Congressperson initiate a repeal, revision or Amendment of the Act. A sharp lawyer could find something in the Act to challenge thru the court system.

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-12a.htm


Wiki....
Quote:
United States[edit]

Legal protection of aircraft wreck sites is highly variable. In terms of protection by aircraft ownership, the U.S. Navy retains indefinite ownership of all Naval aircraft, including terrestrial or submerged wreck sites.[9] The U.S. Air Force has no policies regarding disturbance of vintage aircraft wreck sites, unless human remains or weaponry remain unrecovered at the site. For vintage aircraft, including vintage military aircraft, that are usually considered abandoned when wrecked, the wreck site and all associated contents are subject to the protection laws of the land upon which it rests. The language of cultural heritage protection laws are not aviation specific, so all protection laws pertaining to aviation sites are based on interpretation. Most federal and state laws are, however, explicit in describing cultural resources as either ‘objects, sites, or otherwise, of historic value’[10][11] or ‘military or social history’[12] and deem the time limit as over fifty years old. If an aircraft wreck is over fifty years old, which includes all aviation wreck sites from WWII, and crashed on what is currently federal lands, the sites are automatically protected under National Park Service Law 36CFR2.1[13] against disturbance of any kind without a permit. Sites on federal land are further protected under the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 throughout a determination process. The act stipulates that all historic sites must undergo a Section 106 review to determine eligibility for the National Register of Historical Places prior to being disturbed. Federal lands include, among others, National Parks, National Forests, National Marine Sanctuaries, and land owned by the United States Army Corps of Engineers. Aviation sites, for example a vintage hangar on an airport or a wreck site on the path of a proposed highway, are also immediately subject to Section 106 review if they are to be disturbed by a project that either requires a federal permit or uses federal funds. In most cases, the State Historic Preservation Officer will determine whether or not an aviation site is eligible for the register.

The National Register deems aviation wreck sites as “any aircraft that has been crashed, ditched, damaged, stranded, or abandoned”.[14] It designates the protection terms for aviation history sites as well, including abandoned airfields or facilities sites, testing or experimental sites, land or water air terminals, or airway beacons and navigational aids.

State lands protection laws vary widely across the nation but the language describing a historical resource is the same as federal laws. Therefore, aviation properties and aircraft wrecks on State lands can be protected under various environmental, public resource, and historical property laws as outlined per state for the protection of archaeological and historic resources. Any archaeological survey, excavation, or activity that disturbs wither wreck or aviation property remains can, in some cases, be permitted on federal and state lands under a permitting process through the regulating entity. If an aircraft wreck, or the remains of any aviation property, is located on private land it is not automatically protected by any federal, state, or local law and any survey or excavation work must be permitted by the land owner.

Under the 'Sunken Military Craft Act’ (SMCA) of 2004, it is illegal to disturb, remove, or injure the wreck sites or associated contents of U.S. Naval or any submerged military aircraft.[15] The act identifies military craft as including any sunken military aircraft or military spacecraft that was owned or operated by a government when it sank, and includes the associated contents. Because of the U.S. Navy’s retaining of ownership of all military craft, the act applies to any U.S. Navy aircraft, even if in international or other country’s territorial waters. The act also applies to any foreign military craft in U.S. territorial waters. Persons wishing to conduct archaeological or research exploration of any submerged military aircraft can apply to the Naval History and Heritage Command’s Underwater Archaeology Branch for a permit. The SMCA includes penalties associated with any unauthorized disturbances of sunken military craft as a fine and a liability for the reasonable costs incurred in recovery of archaeological or cultural information, storage, restoration, care, maintenance, and conservation.

As a part of federal air regulations, NTSB Part 830, protects any aircraft whose accident cause is under investigation.[16][17] NTSB officials will routinely seize portions of wrecked aircraft for further analysis. Most of the time, after their study is complete, the sequestered debris is returned to the owners' representation - most often the aircraft's insurance company. However, examples like the reconstructed wreckage of TWA Flight 800 are held in perpetuity by the NTSB to education the public and future investigators on the NTSB's role in transportation safety.

Terrestrial Sites[edit]

Aviation history sites on land that can be subject to archaeological survey or excavation can include airports (which can contain hangars, terminal, other facilities, etc.), crash sites, monuments, or even properties associated with important persons or events in aviation history. Some examples of potential and current archaeological sites:

Aircraft Crash Sites[edit]

The Loon Lake B-23 Dragon crash site in Payette National Forest, Idaho is a remarkably intact example of an aircraft wreck. The crew survived and was rescued, and some avionics removed from the site, and it currently is the subject of a teaching aviation archaeology field school in various years.

Abandoned airfields[edit]

Abandoned airfields can yield much information of historic information about aviation and related industries. From civilian airfields to military airfields, aviation archaeologists can find, uncover, and recover a variety of artifacts, just to name a few: aircraft parts with serial numbers, equipment parts, asphalt or runway material, variety of contamination, structures and foundations, businesses and economics, to community and cultural changes. With the closure of a military airbase, the street system and runways become local expansion of city streets and business; one example is the community conversion of Lowry Air Force Base to a local residential, commercial, and educational environment. Other bases, like the Arlington Auxiliary Army Airfield reverted to farming and ranching.

In 1990, 1994, and 1998, archaeologists investigated, using airborne remote sensing studies and limited excavation, a vintage hangar of the Huffman Prairie Flying Field Site at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. The investigations were “designed to provide information needed for site management by Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and the Dayton Aviation Heritage National Historical Park of the National Park Service. The geophysical and remote sensing investigations revealed magnetic, electromagnetic, and ground penetrating radar anomalies and infrared thermal images associated with the hangar structure. The archaeological excavations located an in situ wood post, posthole features, and artifacts which represent archaeological remains of the actual hangar”.[20] Huffman Prairie Flying Field is listed on the National Register of Historic Properties.

Abandoned missile silos and sites[edit]

California has missile launch sites abandoned by the US Army.[21] Archaeological research includes these sites throughout the United States. Exploring and hiking around abandoned silos and sites may constitute trespassing as well as being dangerous.[22] Permission from current land owners or caretakers is imperative. Research and formal site investigations adds to the historical record of the Cold War. One such site is the Minuteman Missile National Historic Site.[23]

Underwater crash sites[edit]

A B-29 "Superfortress" Serial No. 45-21847 ditched in Lake Mead in 1949. This particular aircraft is listed in the National Register under Criterion C as an example of a significant type of aircraft construction and under Criterion D for it potential to yield important information.

The remains of the USS Macon Airship and its associated F9C Sparrowhawks are located at around 1500 feet in the Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has run survey expeditions to the site, creating photomosaics to track deterioration. The wreck site is listed on the National Register.

Underwater surveying and recovery[edit]

Underwater search and recovery is a complex aspect of aviation archaeology. Dive and recovery team have to do extensive research and planning before any recovery is performed. The aircraft site may be left as a memorial and not recovered. Once an aircraft has been located, an underwater survey is conducted before recovery operations begin. Many tasks are established and the research is a long process that requires the detailed review numerous and various sources of information. The complexities include a great deal of preparation, extensive training, precise planning, and very technical equipment and coordination. Conservation has often proved very difficult[24]

As a profession[edit]

In America aviation archaeologists, crosstrained in other areas of study, are found in the employ of Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command (JPAC), traveling to former war zones throughout the world, to search for the remains of American servicemen and women that have been lost. Many of these losses involve aircraft mishaps in remote and difficult to reach areas. A group of volunteers, under the banner of "The BentProp Project", have pursued American military wreck sites and remains without disturbing them; their findings are forwarded to JPAC. In Australia and in some other parts of the world, where there are human remains involved, a tendency has been for the armed forces to secure the services of forensic anthropologists and crash investigators.

Professional aviation archaeologists may also be involved in the recovery of near-complete examples of wrecked or abandoned aircraft for profit. The clients of these professionals range from private individuals and aviation museums, to government agencies. Often these aircraft are in remote areas, which aids wreckage preservation.[31] Examples include Glacier Girl, a Lockheed P-38 that was successfully recovered from below the Greenland ice cap, and restored to airworthy condition, and Kee Bird, a B-29 Superfortress also abandoned on the Greenland ice cap, but severely damaged by recovery efforts.

In June 2009, the Wreckchasing/Aviation Archaeology Symposium, on the topic of wreckchasing and aviation archaeology was held in northern California at Moffett Field near Mountain View.[32]

North America conference[edit]

On April 17 & 18, 2010, a group of aviation archaeology professionals, avocational and interested persons met in Broomfield, Colorado at the Rocky Mountain Metropolitan Airport for a two-day summit. The attendees came from Arizona, California, Canada, Colorado, Illinois, New Mexico, and Oklahoma representing the interests of wreck chasers, aircraft recovery teams, and avocational archaeologists. The North American Aviation Archaeology Summit was conducted and sponsored by the North American Institute of Aviation Archaeology[33] and Colorado Aviation Historical Society's Aviation Archaeology Program's Staff. Some of the attendees had also attended the 2009 Symposium at Moffett Field. The group discussed all aspects of aviation archaeology, wreck chasing, recovery, modern archaeology techniques, ethics, education, training, hobby enthusiasts, and professional interests. Breakout sessions, consensus, and voting occurred to determine the Summit outcome. The Summit created an organization initially representing the United States and Canada, now to be called: Aviation Archaeology and Heritage Association, and with full agreement to expand and include all nations interested in aviation archaeology and wreck chasing.[33][34]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:05 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 5:42 pm
Posts: 5748
Location: Waukegan,Illinois
The US goverment is totally run by mental midgets. Each and every one of them needs to be tossed out into the cold.

_________________
Ain't no sunshine when she's gone!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:35 pm
Posts: 258
Location: california
the real question is what all else is out there as far as different models of aircraft in that lake? anybody have a talley?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:46 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:13 pm
Posts: 5664
Location: Minnesota, USA
camshaw wrote:
the real question is what all else is out there as far as different models of aircraft in that lake? anybody have a talley?



This question has been asked and answered in numerous threads. Here's one (fairly) recent one that covers your question:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=51428&p=513835&hilit=Lake+Michigan#p513835

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:35 pm
Posts: 258
Location: california
heard a rumor years ago that there are multiple p40s up in those lakes too and some huricanes also...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:42 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:18 am
Posts: 1574
Location: Northwest Ohio
Never heard about Hurricanes but there's a few P-40's that went down and never located.

_________________
A&P/I.A., A.A.S./Aviation Maintenance technology
Warbird salvage/recovery
One day I'll get that P-40!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:35 pm
Posts: 258
Location: california
yep on the hurricanes and i got the storey from an old friend up there whos located a few warbirds that were missing. he mentioned to me about the p40s too


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:44 pm
Posts: 151
I guess that rules out the recovery of B-17D 40-3089, if located.

_________________
Keep your PDI centered!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:35 pm
Posts: 258
Location: california
i thought that b17 went in hard nose down and no survivors?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 459
Anything on the other side of the state, around Selfridge or Grosse Isle?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:36 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:18 am
Posts: 1574
Location: Northwest Ohio
seabee1526 wrote:
Anything on the other side of the state, around Selfridge or Grosse Isle?


There are a few that went down around the Grosse Ile area. There are even planes that went down in lake St. Clair. There was even rumors of a P-40 in Sandusky Bay but there has never been any information found to substantiate the rumor. Plus the fact the bay is between 5-7 feet deep in most area. There also was rumors of a B-17 that ditched in Lake Erie. The rumors were started by an old timer who was a diver and said he dove on it but he never would disclose the location. Now, there is proof of a Corsair that went down and was never recovered. Any one interested? :drink3:

_________________
A&P/I.A., A.A.S./Aviation Maintenance technology
Warbird salvage/recovery
One day I'll get that P-40!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lakr Michigan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:15 pm
Posts: 94
Location: East Central Alabama / Auburn, AL
Only the USN is prohibiting future recoveries. If there is a P-40 or B-17 of USAAC/USAAF heritage, then it is fair game. The Navy is the only one with their heads in a place where it is perpetually dark and smells like rotten kimche.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 268 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group