Jaluit Atoll TBD Devastators

[Taras]

Time for the truth to be told: Captain Ellis from the Naval Aviation Museum Foundation and I have done considerable research about the possibility of recovering one of the TBD’s from the Republic of the Marshall Islands (RMI), the country over Jaluit Atoll. Last night we received an e-mail from the archeologist of the RMI with a copy of their law attached. It is very clear in the e-mail and the RMI law that any idea of recovering one of the aircraft from their waters is a futile effort, because they would only allow the aircraft to be loaned for a short term. The e-mail states, “I understand this is not in the interest of your museum.” He realizes that after all the expense and efforts to retrieve, preserve, and present such an aircraft just on loan is not an option. This information was news to all of us.

I am, trying to figure out why the people claiming to have been working on this effort for years did not bring this information forth long ago.

Taras
Taras Lyssenko
www.ATRecovery.com

[StCurry7]

Well I don't think you will get much sympathy here or really anywhere. It's widely known how Ellis and others connected with the Naval Museum in PEN are not open to allowing private individuals or corporations to recover, restore, display and fly aircraft. Had this been allowed for the past many decades there would no doubt be a LOT of surviving examples on display and even flying today. As time goes on 3 things are key.
1-the elements of nature are exponentially destroying the wrecks both above water and below to the point of nothing left.
2-the next generation doesn't really have the knowledge, desire and deep pockets to recover and restore.
3-global politics and governments both on a local and global level have become far different and your frustration is proof of that. Look at the problems and delays you Taras had just in local govt trying to bring up the wlldcat.

So with all that said its no wonder this is where we are today.

I for one clearly put blame on the people in charge of the Naval museum and Foundation at Pensacola Fl. They could have easily used their influence of decades past to make the situation completely different than the environment it is today.

I look forward to the day where the top people, both men and women, step down. Realistically the laws are such now I'm not convinced they can even be changed.

[tulsaboy]

StCurry7-
I think that you missed the thrust of Taras' post- he has been working with the folks at the NMNA for years doing the Lake Michigan recoveries, and is personally responsible for most of the SBDs and other significant recoveries made there in the last decade. He has also been working with them about the possibility of recovering a TBD for the NMNA so that there would be at least one extant example preserved for future generations. It is my understanding that Ellis and the NMNA folks are squarely behind that effort, and have encouraged Taras in his efforts.

I am so sorry, Taras, that your hard work has been for naught. I look forward to your eventual success in recovering a TBD (and hopefully 2 or 3!)

kevin

[StCurry7]

I didn't miss the point. I am explaining why we have the environment we have today towards the recovery of ANY airframe. I point blame squarely at the Naval Museum and it's policy. If you look back over the last 30 + years you will see a pattern of policy. Not from the Air Force but purely the Naval Museum. It changed into law with the Defense Auth Bill in 2005 and now encompasses ALL branches of the service. That didn't need to happen when the Brewster was deeded to Lex but a bitter legal council for the Museum got some pork in the bill to stop future events.
No doubt this is going to cause a big stir here on the Internet but the facts are the facts.
I'm ok with people's opinions, that's what this country is about BUT the facts are the facts.

[SaxMan]

Sounds like a shakedown by the RMI, to me. I'm sure if you were holding something in your hand, like a very large stack of crisp American currency, they would probably tell you "Law? What law? Oh, that law....If you leave that stack of bills on the table, we'll just forget about the law. Go and take the airplane(s)". They probably learned from the folks over at PNG that Americans are willing to pay top dollar for something that is very rare, and any TBD Devastator, let alone a combat veteran is about as rare and as sought after as they get. A TBD is probably the holy grail of aircraft recovery.

I really can't think of too many other planes that would generate that kind of interest. Maybe if the Vladivostock B-25 from the Tokyo raid was still extant, it would qualify, or perhaps an original AVG P-40.

I hope you can untangle this mess with the RMI and get those birds. I believe there are TBDs closer to home that are candidates for recovery as well?

[davidwomacks]

Two questions here

1.Why does the Navy care if someone recovers a plane that the Navy is just gonna let rot?
2. Why do these pacific nations care if someone recovers a planes as they are just gonna let it sit there and rot?

It makes no sense!
If I had a lot of money I'd buy a ship like the Glomar Explorer and these wrecks would oddly disappear and several years later I would have a rather large stock of rebuilt WW2 planes for sale. If anyone asks I found them on my grandfathers farm. lol

[StangStung]

Few laws are set in stone, and even fewer are without exception. Often with the right attorney/legislator/lobbyist/chief or other community leader with the right stroke, an exception can be made. But I'm sure you've gone down that path already Taras?

Also, seems this is appropriate here:

[tulsaboy]

Given that this topic has been regularly discussed here, and that most folks on this forum share a pretty uniform opinion that recoverable wrecks should, within reason (and with care not to disturb war graves) be recovered. I also think that most folks here think that the Navy's position on this issue has been less than helpful and has resulted in an avoidable but sadly permanent loss of some prety substantial historic material, with the consequence being that there are just a couple of flyable SBDs instead of the dozen or so that should be buzzing around. That said, unless you have some major stroke in Congress, that policy is not likely to change until the leadership of the NMNA changes.

SaxMan, I'd respectfully disagree that the TBD is the "holy grail" of aircraft recoveries. TIGHAR proves that not to be true, with stunning regularity. It's why they keep getting millions of dollars to pursue their flights of fancy, and manage to get the "support" of the Secretary of State, Robert Ballard, etc. while efforts to find a sole surviving TBD, or President Bush's TBM, or even just finish all of the Lake Michigan recoveries get no attention and little funding. Again, sad but true.

kevin

[Taras]

Yes, my point was missed. There have been people talking about recovering one of those aircraft for years, claiming they were going to make it happen. My e-mail was to expose that there is a show stopper. That show stopper has been there for many years.

As for the absolute bovine excrement about the staff of the National Naval Aviation Museum and its supporting Foundation, it has been the Director of the Museum, his staff, and the Foundation’s staff that have worked very hard to make sure aircraft that I have recovered have been able to go into private hands. Everyone that has had the ability to handle these types of projects has had their chance to get such aircraft. Additionally, anyone one who has ever had the ability to handle such aircraft has known how to reach the right people to help with a chance at getting hold of such aircraft. For some reason there are always people out there who have little knowledge and/or ability, but wish to spout non-sense bad mouthing the people who have provided extreme benefit to our Nation and the War Bird community. So quit saying bad things about the people who have done very very good things for everyone’s benefit.

As for getting a TBD, on behalf of the people of the United States of America, I am looking at deep ocean.

Taras

[shepsair]

Taras,

Hope you have been keeping well.

If the Pacific islands are unrecoverable, what about the one of California. It is deeper and in a good condition? but for how much longer? Would this be a possiblity. I know it has no combat time but it does have history and is accessible?

All the best

Mark

[Mark Allen M]

For some reason there are always people out there who have little knowledge and/or ability, but wish to spout non-sense bad mouthing the people who have provided extreme benefit to our Nation and the War Bird community. So quit saying bad things about the people who have done very very good things for everyone’s benefit.Taras

Guilty as charged (once recently with my Madras B-17 debacle)

All the best

+1

[marine air]

That letter is a great starting point. SUggest looking at the top 4 or 5 industries on that island or chain of islands. Start making contacts with the big shipping industry or whomever is their number one source of income. Dutch? Okay next contact their embassy and find a contact person. The big industries will have the most control over the local and national government. YOu guys just need a waiver to that law and someone has to be "incentivised" The U. S. may not even be in the top ten nations they trade with. Suggest using the leverage of whomever has the most financial and political clout in the country.

[brucev]

There are two aircraft down there right? Recover both and let RMI keep one.

[marine air]

I was in AFghanistan earlier this year. YOU wouldn't believe the mountsins of scrap metal as we scrap Humvees, MRAPs, desks, tents, etc. My vote it to give them a boatload of equipment they can use like computers, water purification plants,air conditioners, satellite dishes, whatever. Not only is the U.S. military abandoning stuff but so are all the contractors and participating countries. Let the Marshal Islands come up with a long wish list. YOu have to keep it at a level their politicians can understand.

[John Dupre]

What about the one off of Florida? What keeps the Navy from recovering that one?