Warbird Information Exchange

The Stuka and the P-40C are both instantly recognizable to most enthusiasts. Both are "winners": Stukas in the Blitz, P-40's in China (and elsewhere). Both have a certain aesthetic appeal, where the F2A has none. The Buffalo might make waves in Scandinavia, but I would bet against it being a big hit at Oshkosh. And I don't think anyone will spend big bucks restoring one to prove me wrong (if they could find one).

This thread was about rarity, and not which a/c should be saved.

The redeeming factor of the TBD is that during THE pivotal naval engagement of the Pacific Theatre, their sacrifice left the Japanese carriers wide open for attack from the SBD's. There were many Devastators in front-line service at the time. They performed adequately at Coral Sea, and elsewhere. Their biggest drawback was their main armament, the torpedo itself. Couldn't blame that on the aircraft.

The U.S. Navy took delivery of ELEVEN Buffaloes. Add the leftover U.S.M.C. birds, and you might have had enought to equip one training squadron. After the Dutch surrender, the USAAF briefly took control of 17 a/c, and then promptly foisted them off on the RAAF. In U.S. service, this a/c never made any significant contribution to the war effort. It still goes back to the numbers. The Brewster F2A Buffalo was, is, and ever shall be, irrelevant.

(Unless you're a Finnish citizen. I think they have at least one in a museum, if you need to touch one.)

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"There's nothing new under the sun. It's only new to you."

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

Sorry for the minor thread detour/hijacking (cyberjacking?) With a handle like "TBDude" I think I'm kind expected to stand up for the ol' Devastators


As SaxMan predicted, I'm in complete agreement with that statement.

I do not understand your thinking or facts. The U.S. Navy/marines operated 162 some F2A's. Not eleven! And 20 F2A-3's of VMF-221 at Midway where in the air.

You do know the Buffalo had two other combat engagements with the U.S. right? Just not on June 4th?

-In December F2A's of USS Lexington strafed a Japanese submarine off Hawaii waters.

-Then in March 1942 VMF-221 attacked H8K Emily flying boats flying close to Midway Island and VMF-221 Buffalo's shot down one.

-Then you have the Battle of Midway where F2A-3's accounted for several Japanese airplanes.

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Also do not forget British use of the Buffalo in Burma alongside the AVG. They were decimated, but are symbolic of the desperate early fighting, much like the TBD.

Wouldn't be a sensation at Oshkosh? Sorry, that's just funny.

Will we ever see one? One static replica has already been built from scratch. I wouldn't bet against seeing an airworthy one some day.

August

How about a double sensation at Oshkosh ...

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Zero Surprise!!...

I think the families of the VMF-221 pilots who lost their lives at Midway would beg to differ.

Is there any airframe out there, civilian or military, that would be considered truly irrelevant? Heck, I even think Cessna 172s are relevant.

There's always going to be someone out there who will restore something, even though conventional wisdom says it would not be a good way to spend one's money. All one has to do is look at the vintage car world. There are examples of pristine examples of vehicles that nobody else would think of saving or restoring. Saving the oddballs that no one thinks about is what makes the vintage car world interesting. The same could be said for our little world. Building an F2A or TBD replica is certainly within the realm of the abilities of several of the restoration shops in this country. It all comes down to dollars and desire. I sincerely believe that we will see a flying TBD replica within the next 20 years.

My bad.

Incomplete source documentation. Brewster had irregular accounting practices, so we may never know for sure how many were actually built. Including some duplicate c/n's, 515 total seems like a nice round number, for discussion purposes. Of that number, RAF got about 210 (including 40 earmarked for Belgium), some of which went to the RAAF & RNZAF, the Dutch got 70, Finland got about 50, and the Aussies got about 20. That's 350 of the 515.

USN took delivery of 11 F2A-1's. That's the number I had originally. Approximately 44 F2A-2's (there is some conflicting data regarding c/n's here). Finally, approximately 110 F2A-3's, for over half of which (60-ish), the unit assignment is not known. That's 165 total, which more or less agrees with the other stated figures. Given the disbursement of the write-offs, it seems there weren't too many in any given location. Of the 105 F2A's assigned to known units, about 90 were in service on Dec. 7, 1941. Of those, about 60 or so were in USMC squadrons. Most of the rest were either Stateside, or in U.S. territories, like the Canal Zone or the Caribbean. All were removed from front-line service by mid-1942. The total number also includes some aircraft which may have been earmarked for other countries, but were seized by the Navy to fulfill contractual obligations.

I stand corrected.

There are several a/c with duplicate c/n's. Given the questionable accounting practices at Brewster, it's hard to know what actually arrived in the shipping crates at the other end. Incomplete a/c? Empty crates? Vanished in the fog of war. If you're thinking the high number of un-accounted for airframes means there's some waiting to be found, think again. In the places these planes disappeared, they would have been re-purposed into pots and pans. Or melted down to make souvenirs. Poverty-stricken locals make quick work of recycling strategic materials like aluminum.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, my question is: When did anyone start caring about these? The amount of money that would be spent to re-create one could be better spent restoring other, more important a/c already awaiting restoration.

Strafing subs and shooting down flying boats is not really the measure of a fighter, so those actions were omitted. Compared to the combat records of every other WWII a/c mentioned in this thread, the Buffalo's record pales to insignificance. This aircraft made no noteworthy contribution to the war effort anywhere, other than Finland.

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"There's nothing new under the sun. It's only new to you."

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

Tomahawk, you are making several large debatable assumptions about what is important in assessing an aircraft's historical importance and interest to potential modern-day restorers and owners.

Many things besides the extent and success of a type's combat use are relevant.

To take an example, the F-82 Twin Mustang was built in half the numbers of the F2A and has much less of a combat history. It would be even more of an irrelevant footnote than the F2A by your calculus, yet two different groups (or three, if you count the would-be buyer for the ex-CAF one) seem willing to invest big-time into getting one flying and quite a few folks are looking forward to seeing them. When one shows up at Oshkosh I expect a crowd will form.

August

Tomahawk said:


OK, so let's just count the twenty Buffalos - out of maybe 165 by your accounting - that saw combat at Midway. That is one a/c out of every 8 built, more or less. Do you think for a moment that 1/8 of all F4Fs built saw combat? NOT A CHANCE! That 1/8 might actually be higher than for many more famous American fighter types.

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Kevin McCartney

Wow. I wasn't going to bring up P-61's & P-82's, but now I can't let it go. The main reason they are building "Twin Mustangs" is that, to the unwashed masses, it's TWO Mustangs joined at the hip! (yes, I know they're totally different, but most people don't). That's right - you could have THREE paying passengers, if you build them for that purpose. Mustangs are gold-plated revenue streams for the owners. They are the '69 Z-28 of the skies. Lots of planes available, and lots of parts to fix them. Big crowds at air shows. Chicks dig 'em. Sex on wings. An instant collectible in 1945. At least they make a particle of sense. The P-61's on the other hand...

When on earth did Brewster Buffaloes get such a devoted following? Is this a "Wise Guy"/"Jersey Shore" thing? Or are you all Finnish immigrants?

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"There's nothing new under the sun. It's only new to you."

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

It fought in the most epic battle (IMHO) of human history. So it does count as significant. It was in the battle and that is good enough for me to honor the plane and the people associated with it.

And for the record, the F2A has always been a favorite of mine. I even think it's an attractive airplane. Hard for you to believe, huh?

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You need to study some history. Midway isn't even one of the "most epic" battles of WWII, let alone all of human history. It's only remarable from an aviation perspective. In terms of what people find attractive, there's no accounting for taste (or a lack thereof).

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"There's nothing new under the sun. It's only new to you."

"Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

thanks for that.

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Shop the Airplane Bunker At
www.warbirdbunker.com

Midway is considered the turning point in the Pacific, it crippled the IJN carrier force.
I'd consider it very important...since it paved the way for victory in that theater.
I'm just not sure about the word "epic" (since we're talking history here, not X-Games stunts).

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

Epic!!!? Bruce Smith of the AP seems to think the battle of Midway was epic ...
http://onlineathens.com/local-news/2012 ... tle-midway

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Zero Surprise!!...