Warbird Acquistions and Negotiation Secrecy

[daveymac82c]

I'm interested to hear what the brain-trust of WIX has to say about this topic.

When it comes to the competitive bidding process of acquiring a significant warbird from its current owner, what are the pros and cons of having it a secret process versus a very open and public process?

What benefits would it bring the seller, and what benefits would it hold for the people or organizations hoping to acquire the airplane? And on the other side of the coin, what would be the detrimental impacts to the seller and the bidders when keeping the proceedings private?

Examples would be much welcomed.

Cheers,

David McIntosh
Vancouver, BC

[P51Mstg]

You always want to negotiate a deal behind closed doors... There is no reason not to....

So the asking on the 51 is $2mil. Not many interested. You negotiate and the owner is down to $1.5mil... Post it on WIX and someone who didn't care before is offering $1.6 to screw up your deal....

Close the doors....

Mark H

[Jack Cook]

I've found and respected the fact that most people (99.9%) like to keep their private financial dealings well..........private.

[JohnB]

I wonder if we'll see the day when there is an aircraft equivalent of the big-time classic auto auctions?

Most of you are aware of Barrett-Jackson and Mecum on TV, but the really big car deals are handled by high-end firms like RM, Gooding and Bonhams.
Some of their car prices make paying $2 million for a Mustang look like an impulse buy at the supermarket check-out.

Those deals, while conducted in an open auction, are also clouded in secrecy. The actual bidders are often not in the room or use go-betweens. Rarely is it announced who the buyer is, much of the time auction analysts for car publications say that the car was bought by an American/UK or European buyer...that's it.
And the REALLY big sales sometimes don't even go to auction like the sale of a Ferrari GTO last year for more than $50 million...(which puts the $37 million sale of a similar car at a Pebble Beach auction look like an ebay special).

Aircraft (if they're to be flown) and real estate have a fairly public registration process...so some information will always be out there, but as far as "who's buying what"..I doubt if the unwashed masses will ever know a great deal. After all, they don't publicize expensive car or art purchases...and like warbirds, they have a legitimate following of people interested in the status and whereabouts of historically significant objects.

[daveymac82c]

Cool, thanks for the input.

It definitely makes sense to have a cloud of secrecy around aircraft sales, like Mark suggested, to prevent deals getting effected by outside sources.

Cheers,

David

[DH82EH]

Another factor is that when a possible acquisition is available, the interested party wants to acquire it without the seller, or a third party, deciding that the interested party can be gouged.
It's not that they don't want you to know DaveyMac, they just don't want the internet to know, 'cause the internet can't keep it's mouth shut!

Andy

[cooper9411]

Not just secrecy around aircraft sales but recoveries as well! Seen it happen many times where someone does all the "legwork" then at the last minute someone else slips in and snatches it out from underneath them! I know this thread is about aircraft sales but just thought I'd input my .02 about search and recoveries. OK I'm done for now!

[Matt Gunsch]

Not your money, none of your business.

[JohnB]

Not your money, none of your business.

Fair enough...but if something is rare and a historic artifact..(though I won't use the term "national treasure") buyers have got to expect some interest in what they buy and what happens to it.

But with recent demonization of high-worth people: aka the evil "1% ers", I can understand why folks are nervous.

[daveymac82c]

No worries cooper9411, that's an interesting point on a very, very similar tangent.

I've learned a lot from peoples comments and it will influence how I move forward, with things...

Cheers,

David

[cooper9411]

No worries cooper9411, that's an interesting point on a very, very similar tangent.

I've learned a lot from peoples comments and it will influence how I move forward, with things...

Cheers,

David

Thanks David. It has impacted the way I've been doing things for a few years now. I would like to share things that are in the works/ going on while its happening but i learn from valuable lessons! So now I share things after the fact.

[JimH]

It's been said that it's "their money" & "their business" and it's true. Yes, they are pieces of history, and yes, they are of great interest to ALOT of people, but in the end they are commodities, investments and personal property.

Public Organizations, Museums, and Foundations, are a little more public and forthcoming with information because they ARE trying to appeal to the masses. They can offer a tax deductible donation umbrella to owners or estates that wish to take advantage of that route. Organizations such as these are also trying to raise money to keep what they have going as long as possible, therefore they NEED the public "in the know". Even with that said it is still as private as an organization can make it or wants it. There are some really cool projects coming together that only a select few are privy too...is it fair?, in the grand scheme of things, no...but it is the owner(s) who chooses to keep it that way. It is also the responsibility of those that do know to keep their mouth shut until the owner decides if and when to go public.

When Tony Raftis stepped in to the scene a few years ago and started to acquire warbirds for the purpose of re-selling he changed the market forever. Prices skyrocketed and restoration quality was stepped up to meet the demands of the purists and the investor. Things have settled down in recent years with pricing but the higher end market for warbirds still exists...$7 million P-38s....$3 million Corsairs... and so on. While warbird rumors persist and are kinda fun to speculate about, we who, are realistically "not in the know" should continue to enjoy watching and seeing what owners are willing to share with us. We should all support public organizations that are trying to grow or maintain what they have for the us to enjoy.

jim

[p51]

So the asking on the 51 is $2mil. Not many interested. You negotiate and the owner is down to $1.5mil... Post it on WIX and someone who didn't care before is offering $1.6 to screw up your deal....

Yep. Not airplane related, but in 1999 when I'd had a handshake deal for my WW2 Jeep but no money had swapped hands yet, I kept that REALLY quiet for that very reason. Somehow someone found out anyway but not through me, and hadn't realized said Jeep had ever been for sale. He went to the seller and offered more money for that very reason. I didn't know the second guy at all before that.
Thankfully, the seller was a real stand up guy and said a deal's a deal. I didn't even find that out from the seller, I found it out from the guy who'd tried to buy it, long after I'd completed the deal. I just lucked up and dealt with a guy who was good for his word.
After that close call, I'd keep any such deal uber quiet until I had the item in hand with a reciept.

[jtramo]

The auction madness has pretty much destroyed the muscle car scene. In the mid to early 2000s you could own a Mustang/Cuda/Camaro of decent pedigree for $15-20,000 or a clone in driver shape for half that. When I was 21 I owned a 71 Challenger and a 64 Vette (at the same time) for a whopping total of $12,000. I sold both because hey, I can always buy another.

Yeah now Id be talking Big money for the clone challenger let alone the Vette. "But I saw one go for $75,000 on TV" said the owner of a basket case 71 non RT 340 Challenger. Reasonable offers met with "you're trying to rip me off!" Thanks to investors the car guys are priced out.

Mass produced (sloppy and crappy built) muscle cars going for hand formed Ferrari money? Sheesh.

I've noticed decent gains on the entry level warbirds as well. I'm interested in getting a BT/AT in the next few years and projects are asking silly money let alone the flyers for north of $100k that have been on the market for years. Is there such at thing as an entry level (non L-bird) warbird anymore?

[k5083]

I wonder if we'll see the day when there is an aircraft equivalent of the big-time classic auto auctions?

That was tried in the 1990s at Santa Monica by David Price.

They had a few pretty good years, judging by the write-ups of the sales. I went to some of the public viewing days. They had some nice stuff.

August