Warbird Information Exchange

Jack,
Let me add thanks for the book suggestion, it was a good read.
Gary

I don't think so my friend. Everyone who served is a hero.
Some where just better people than others I guess.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Jack,
I totally agree. All who serve are heroes.
Gary

I posted this question several months ago, but never really got a satisfactory answer. The ongoing fight about Boyington made me think of it again. Since my good friends Gary and Jack know more about this subject than anybody I know, I'm hoping they will weigh in on it.
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I'll point out now that I'm not questioning the honesty of anybody or disrespecting the aces, just asking something that I've always wondered.

Along with fraternization with the enemy, the drinking and the Baa Baa Black Sheep TV series, anytime Pappy Boyington is brought up, one of the first things people say is "he lied about his kills". I believe it was his last mission that he claimed two kills that weren't confirmed by anybody else. Those kills, plus the ones with the AVG (confirmed or not) made him the top Marine Corps ace of all time. In my mind, Joe Foss should have that title because all of his kills were made as a Marine, not a member of the AVG.

We all know that kills were inflated on all sides, through human nature, politics or accident.

What I'd like to know is this. How many of the aces had EVERY SINGLE KILL verified? I don't believe I've ever heard anybody question the kill numbers of other well known aces besides Boyington. Is it because of all the other contraversy that followed him around or what? Are there other aces that might not rank as high if they were examined as hard as Boyington?

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Brad

Hey Brad,
Tough question to answer and no names of top aces come to my mind with the exception of Bob Johnson who originally had 1 ground kill put with his aerial kills so he has 27 not 28. WWI and the Flying tigers are a different story.
Many believe Billy Bishop only scored 1 kill with the other 71 being fables. Many WWI aces had their scores revised by the AF in the 60s when they did their studies on aerial victories. Shared kills originally credited has whole were recaluated and ballons not counted at all. Many including Eddie Rickenbacker had their scores reduced and many became unaces. Also in regard to the Flying Tigers originally many claimed and were credited has aces due to their Camco bonuses and ground kills. George Burgard's son Lee has a neat site talking in detail about AVG medals and aerial victories.
http://members.tripod.com/Flying-tiger-ace/id56.htm
Boyington wasn't the only AVG member who tried to claim the bonuses has kills. You must remember that in many cases the bonus was split between those pilots flying the mission so in fact you could get credits by flying cover and not engaging the enemy.
An example of this is MOH awardee Jim Howard scored only 2.33 aerial victories, Ken Jernstedt with 3 victories the rest for both being ground claims.
Here is a list of victories and camco credits.

Pilot bonus account
CAMCO credits air-to-air kills

Percy Bartelt 7.00 5.00
William Bartling 7.27 5.00
Lewis Bishop 5.20 2.20
Charles Bond 8.77 7.00
Gregory Boyington 3.50 2.00
J. Gilpin Bright 6.00 3.00
George Burgard 10.79 10.00
Thomas Haywood 5.08 4.00
Robert Hedman 4.83 6.00
David Lee Hill 11.25 10.25
James Howard 6.33 2.33
Kenneth Jernstedt 10.50 3.00
C. H. Laughlin 5.20 2.20
Frank Lawlor 8.50 7.00
Robert Little 10.55 10.00
William McGarry 10.29 8.00
George McMillan 4.08 4.50
Robert Moss 5.00 2.00
Robert Neale 15.55 13.00
John Newkirk 10.50 7.00
Charles Older 10.08 10.00
Edmund Overend 5.83 5.00
Robert Prescott 5.29 5.50
Edward Rector 6.52 4.75
William Reed 10.50 3.00
C. Joseph Rosbert 4.55 6.00
J. Richard Rossi 6.29 6.00
Robert Sandell 5.27 5.00
Charles Sawyer 5.27 2.00
Frank Schiel 7.00 4.00
Robert H. Smith 5.50 5.00
Robert T. Smith 8.73 8.90
Fritz Wolf 2.27 4.00

You can see the difference between between credit s and victories. Actually because of this a few were not credited has aces has they should have been like Fritz Wolf and joe Rosbert. 9 pilots really wewn't aces.
For Marine squadrons like Boyington's VMF-214 the Squadron IO had the final say in victory credits. I visited Frank Walton a number of times in Hawaii and he told me he never denied Boyington on a claim he made. Now how's that for a chain of command. Deny your CO a kill and he gives you a bad fitrep.
VMF-214 was actually a very experience group of pilots having both 1 and 2 tour vets many with previous kills with the new guys mixed in.
Sorry for the long winded reply but you asked the question.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Yes, but should we not consider that claims go both ways? For instance, if an aircraft damaged in a dogfight makes it home but crashes upon landing due to said damage (or injury), should that not be a "kill" for the pilot who did the shooting? Or similarly, if the damaged aircraft gets two thirds of the way home, then the engine fails due to a bullet and the pilot ditches, never to be seen again, is that not also arguably a "kill"? Where is the line? What is the period of time that an aircraft must succumb to damage inflicted in air-to-air combat within for it to be considered a "kill" as opposed to only a "loss"?

Anyways, do you think there were any planes that Boyington (et al) scrapped with which failed after the fact? I bet there were a few...

Just my opinion, and a different angle.

greg v.

Jack,

Thanks for the answer. You and I, along with a few others, hold a grudge against Boyington for a couple of reasons. My particular problem with him was the fraterniziation with the enemy stuff in prison.

I believe that Boyington is probably the most picked on person from WWII. Most of it probably is his own fault. Ithink it is because he is so well known through the TV show. If some of the other aces had the same exposure to the public that he had, some of them might not be seen in the same light.

All that being said, I still respect him ,and all the other military folks,for the willingness to go into combat.

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Brad

Jack,
You will be pleased to know that the Washington Legislature on this date duly recognized Colonel Boyington as a heroic aviator and proud son of Washington in response to the morons of the U of W student govt. The report also suggests that the University may have a change of heart in regards to recognizing their famous alumni.
I thought this would make your day.
Senate resolution 8728
Gary

that doesn't say much for the Washington Legistlature.
It's a shame they couldn't do the same for Gen. Bob Galer MOH winner/double ace and Gen Richard Mangrum SBD Navy Cross winner/Vice Commandant of the Marine Corps. Both UW grads and MC legends.
I guess you need a TV show to be honored in WA.

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Don't touch my junk!!

a tv show or be trashed by a local state university........

a tv show or be trashed by a local state university........

Gary,
I'll bet you a shiney silver dollar that they never even heard of Galer or Mangrum. It does pay to have a TV show.

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Don't touch my junk!!

boyington in my opinion was a ww 2 hero cut & dry. if he f'd up his personal civilian life, who are we to pass judgement on him, his mistakes, etc. every post on this thread has him cannonized or blown to pieces with cannons. the only person who can defend him is boytington himself. he's long gone, & i hope he rests in peace regardless of his personal faults, short comings, quirks or weaknesses. he was a man, who defended his country, while colorful in his way. hate him, revere him, he was just a man.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Well said, Tom ...

My 'opinion' of Boyington is based on the only thing that counts: what his men, his pilots, have said about him over the years. Almost all positive, to a man. After all this time, if Pappy was a "loser", or "fake", his men, like McClurg, for example, would have already trashed him in books - THEY would be calling for his MoH to be rescinded. Quite the opposite if you read their accounts.

Even after the "Baa Baa Black Sheep/Black Sheep Squadron" TV 'thing', some of them were deeply hurt - but they still stood by him almost in complete unison! Why? Hardly because he "made them famous" ... many of those men have said they could have done without that kind of "publicity". I'll bet many of those men feel like they owe their lives to Boyington, that's why.

Good enough for his "boys", good enough for me, period.

His Medal of Honor paperwork was well underway before he was shot down, by the way, for not only his victories, but his innovative combat tactics, which were dramatically successful and recognized througout the Solomons.

The "Black Sheep" were the product of their leader - yes, while there were veterans on board for the first and second tours (when Pappy was with them), it should also be mentioned that there were not a few (McClurg, later an ace, is a good example) who had literally zilch fighter or even Corsair time when they were assigned to 214.

The vets leading divisions isn't why they kicked a$$. They did so because they were led from the front by an experienced, aggressive squadron commander who set the tone and continually strove to not only make his squadron the best, but to bring back his pilots. He drilled into his men procedures that would be acted upon by reflex, making them highly effective and more likely to come home, all things being equal.

Several pilots have written how they were amazed at how Pappy instinctively knew when to strike with aggression, and when to use caution. This experience, and his efforts at instilling this into his men, thus enabling them to succeed at such a high level while staying alive was but one reason, I suppose, that may answer the 'Why?' question I posed above.

As one pilot put it, in Gamble's book, "You can be a great pilot and fly fighter planes, but that doesn't make you a great fighter pilot". Pappy was the epitome of the latter - and that's coming from his men. Anybody up to arguing with those who flew with him?

That being said, I'm all for awarding Joe Foss his due. Foss is the top Marine ace. Gamble and others before him have set the record 'sorta' straight on Pappy's true score, though the lack of witness verification and gun cameras probably makes more than a few claims "suspect" throughout that theatre. Even then, he leaves most others in the dust. If you take away Boyington's MoH, then pull Shomo's, Foss', and probably many others. In my personal opinion, significant personal sacrifices on the order of that B-29 radio operator Henry "Red" Erwin, who picked up a burning flare with his bare hands and threw it overboard, thus literally saving his crew and plane, should be 'what it takes' to earn the Medal of Honor. Anything less is really just a variation on doing your flippin' job.

Shortly before he died, I got an up close and personal look at Mr. Erwin at Vee Jay's By the Runway in Birmingham, AL. Every square inch of his visible body was horribly scarred. When you start passing out medals and judging character, start with men like that ... it only goes downhill from there.

Wade

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