Why have the Doolittle planes that ditched not been recoverd

[davidwomacks]

The historic value of these wrecks are so great yet it seems no one had ever tried to recover them. Why is that?

[Ken]

There have been groups who tried; search older threads for details.

1. Determining the exact location of the aircraft, even in 1942, would be difficult.

2. Shifting and/or damage from 70 years of storms has likely been pronounced.

3. According to an online source, one bellied in and three ditched, so that narrows down the possibilities.

4. The politics of China could be a barrier.

I'd love to see something located also, however possibility is likely defeated by probability.

[JohnB]

My guess....in addition to the above.

There wouldn't be much left after 70+ years.

[Cvairwerks]

Cubic dollars.... By the time you put together the staff necessary, lease/purchase all the equipment, find, recover and stabilize the wreckage, you could have started a B-25 production line as well as lines for the props and engines. As the depth increases past about 100', the recovery process difficulty rises exponentially. In 1973, the US spent over 350 million dollars to build the Glomar Explorer to recover the K-129 in 3 miles of water. It wouldn't cost as much to recover one of the Dolittle planes, but I would bet it would be well past 25 million before you had it on the dock.

[GARY HILTON]

Didn't one of the B-25 crews land intact in Russia?

[HPDCapt]

Yorks aircraft landed in Russia after the raid. The crew later escaped through Iran. I read somewhere that the B-25 was destroyed in a hanger fire after the war.

[Dave Homewood]

Yorks aircraft landed in Russia after the raid. The crew later escaped through Iran.

Why did they have to 'escape' from an Allied country? And Iran seems a very long way to go.

[JohnB]

Why did they have to 'escape' from an Allied country? And Iran seems a very long way to go.

Because Russia was not at war with Japan.

The USSR neutrality thing is the same as it was with allied aircrews escaping via Spain...or some crews/ planes being interned in Switzerland, Sweden or Ireland.

At the end of the war, IIRC between the two atomic bombs, Russia did declare war on Japan so they could get some war booty, in this case some then-disputed islands...which Japan wants back.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks John, that explains it, although the Russian stance is still a bit puzzling as they'd been at war with Germany since June 1941, the USA was at war with Germany since December 1941, this raid occurred mid-1942 and the Germans and Japanese were firmly in league with each other, so you'd think the Russians might have been more lenient on airmen from a nation who were supplying them material to stay alive, and turn a blind eye in the case of this one crew. The USA was always doing favours for the British whilst supposedly neutral...

[shrike]

Thanks John, that explains it, although the Russian stance is still a bit puzzling as they'd been at war with Germany since June 1941, the USA was at war with Germany since December 1941, this raid occurred mid-1942 and the Germans and Japanese were firmly in league with each other, so you'd think the Russians might have been more lenient on airmen from a nation who were supplying them material to stay alive, and turn a blind eye in the case of this one crew. The USA was always doing favours for the British whilst supposedly neutral...

The joys of international relationships. Remember that the Germans and Russians were allied (secretly but explicitly)when they both invaded Poland. The Russians and Japanese had just finished - like within 24 hours before the invasion of Poland - an intense little border skirmish in Mongolia before that completely changed the internal political power structure of the IJA vs the IJN and set in motion Japan's turn across the Pacific.
While Russia and Germany were at war, and Germany and Japan had a treaty, so did Russia and Japan that was in no way contingent on what Russia and German (and her allies) were up to. After the effects of the huge ironclad reciprocal treaties in WWI, no one was really willing to go that route again if they could help it.

[davidwomacks]

Why did they have to 'escape' from an Allied country? And Iran seems a very long way to go.

Because Russia was not at war with Japan.

The USSR neutrality thing is the same as it was with allied aircrews escaping via Spain...or some crews/ planes being interned in Switzerland, Sweden or Ireland.

At the end of the war, IIRC between the two atomic bombs, Russia did declare war on Japan so they could get some war booty, in this case some then-disputed islands...which Japan wants back.

I always wonder why countys dispute which island is theirs especially when they are just uninhabited rocks. I find it even funnier that the countrys that lost these said islands in a war whine to get them back. As far as I'm concerned those islands belong to Russia just like Texas belongs to the US.They won the war so why should they have to give the land back to the loosers.

[whistlingdeath77]

I would explore the b-25s that need tlc here in the states well before I would be looking for the remains of the others. The cost,( as others have posted,) would be so much that you could have helped several of them here

[Kyleb]

I always wonder why countys dispute which island is theirs especially when they are just uninhabited rocks. I find it even funnier that the countrys that lost these said islands in a war whine to get them back.

The uninhabited rocks define national boundaries, which in turn determine who owns the mineral rights to whatever is under the seabed. In other words, the squabbling countries are trying to control the oil and gas rights.

[PinecastleAAF]

It wouldn't cost as much to recover one of the Dolittle planes, but I would bet it would be well past 25 million before you had it on the dock.

I have to believe the cost to benefit ratio on this one is really small. Good grief you could spend millions and wind up with nothing. Sounds familiar btw.

[sandiego89]

Thanks John, that explains it, although the Russian stance is still a bit puzzling as they'd been at war with Germany since June 1941, the USA was at war with Germany since December 1941, this raid occurred mid-1942 and the Germans and Japanese were firmly in league with each other, so you'd think the Russians might have been more lenient on airmen from a nation who were supplying them material to stay alive, and turn a blind eye in the case of this one crew. The USA was always doing favours for the British whilst supposedly neutral...

The joys of international relationships. Remember that the Germans and Russians were allied (secretly but explicitly)when they both invaded Poland. The Russians and Japanese had just finished - like within 24 hours before the invasion of Poland - an intense little border skirmish in Mongolia before that completely changed the internal political power structure of the IJA vs the IJN and set in motion Japan's turn across the Pacific.
While Russia and Germany were at war, and Germany and Japan had a treaty, so did Russia and Japan that was in no way contingent on what Russia and German (and her allies) were up to. After the effects of the huge ironclad reciprocal treaties in WWI, no one was really willing to go that route again if they could help it.

The Soviets/Russians were not so quick to release other US servicemen as well, such as the B-29 crew of the "Ramp Tramp" and the other B-29's which the Soviets used to copy as the Tu-4. Some 7 months in prison camp.... http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsh ... sp?id=1852

And there was this: Soviet authorities detained 119 U.S. servicemen "with Russian, Ukrainian or Jewish names" from the more than 22,000 GIs they liberated from German POW camps at the end of World War II. Although most were released after U.S. protests, 18 died in Soviet custody and "some ended up staying in camps for a long time. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-1 ... v-cold-war

Contrast to the US letting Soviet pilots fly from Alaska when they were picking up lend-lease aircraft, and US ships took supplies into Soviet ports. Seems "courtesy" was perhaps not so even sided.