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 Post subject: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:25 pm 
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I recently read an account of a particularly well known Mustang pilot. In the article he claims that after being shot down over France he spent time with the resistance who then helped him to steal a Me 262 which he flew back across the English Channel landing at one of the big bomber bases in Southern England. I don't want to impugn anyone's memory or memories but the story is so fantastic that I can't believe I have never heard of it before. On the other hand it seems every week some story turns up regarding the war that I have never heard of. Some one must have list of Luftwaffe aircraft acquired before the surrender, any Me 262s on it?

Some years ago I heard a similar story regarding a P-38 pilot stealing an Me 262 but never found any facts to substantiate it. I do know there were at least two successful thefts by escaping POWs of Fw 190s including the great Bob Hoover. There was one Me 262 flown by a defecting Luftwaffe pilot to Switzerland.

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:48 pm 
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John Dupre wrote:
I recently read an account of a particularly well known Mustang pilot. In the article he claims that after being shot down over France he spent time with the resistance who then helped him to steal a Me 262 which he flew back across the English Channel landing at one of the big bomber bases in Southern England. I don't want to impugn anyone's memory or memories but the story is so fantastic that I can't believe I have never heard of it before. On the other hand it seems every week some story turns up regarding the war that I have never heard of. Some one must have list of Luftwaffe aircraft acquired before the surrender, any Me 262s on it?

Some years ago I heard a similar story regarding a P-38 pilot stealing an Me 262 but never found any facts to substantiate it. I do know there were at least two successful thefts by escaping POWs of Fw 190s including the great Bob Hoover. There was one Me 262 flown by a defecting Luftwaffe pilot to Switzerland.


http://www.avia-it.com/act/cera_una_vol ... iction.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:24 pm 
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I believe I read the same account you did. My reaction was the same as yours...why wouldn't have this story been more well known?

By that point in the war, the Allies were keeping a wary eye on jet airfields, and they also knew the Me262 was most vulnerable taking off or landing. It would seem that any Me262 not based deep in German territory would immediately be pounced upon by patrolling Allied fighters.


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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:05 pm 
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The latest issue of Warbird Digest has a nice write up about the P-51 Berlin Express. The article continues with some wartime info about Bill Overstreet Jr. It mentions that he was shot down, evaded capture and hooked up with the Free French near a German airfield. There, they took over a ME 262 that was being run by a technician. Overstreet is stated to get in the aircraft and takeoff, returning to England.
I question a bit as to if this really happened this way. There is a major difference between what he was used to flying and an ME 262. One must wonder how difficult it would have been: 1. Get into an enemy aircraft on an enemy airfield. 2. An aircraft with (I assume) all of the controls and gauges in a different language. 3. Takeoff and fly a distance in an aircraft with as I understand limited range (and potentially with an unknown quantity of fuel). 4. Keep it within it's operating limits so as to prevent catastrophic damage to the aircraft (takeoff speed, gear speed, max speed). 5. Fly through airspace under almost complete allied control that was full of hungry fighter pilots without being shot down. 6. Get to a base in England in an enemy aircraft without being shot down by that bases defense system. 7. Make a Safe and controlled landing.
That all being said, he was an outstanding pilot with amazing skills and if he says he did it who am I to question it.

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:16 pm 
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As stated in the above link:

http://www.avia-it.com/act/cera_una_vol ... iction.pdf

These stories of allied pilots swiping an enemy fighter to fly it home are ficticious accounts. Airplane Repo WWII Style.


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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:48 pm 
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I do not doubt any allied fighter pilot being able to fly a German piston fighter to allied lines and landing there without major problems.
With any jetfighter (Me 262) I guess it would be extremely difficult. Why? Because those early jetengines, Jumo 004 were extremly sensitive regarding throttle changes. Not just push the throttle to the stop. If you did, you´d get a flame out. Not funny if you know the ship and the procedures, but very difficult if you jump in and go. I do not say it could not have been done, but it seems to be an extraordinary difficult task. So can a fighter pilot fly a Me 262? Sure. But 1. flight with no experience, no knowledge of procedures, limits and gauges in different language / calibration? Very, very difficult. If someone really has done so, I for sure tip my hat.

Michael

P.S.: Have a look at this 1945 Me 262 training film, watch from 3:15 to 6:15 how cautiously and slowly the throttle is moved. Imagine some P-51 jock sitting in the cockpit for the first time without any helping hand. Difficult, I´d say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey6qQOXpHRo


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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:19 pm 
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I was a little curious what may have been stolen during the war. I haven't come across any German planes stolen by Americans yet. I did see these. The first is about souvenir hunters and a captured German plane.

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:13 pm 
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Mainly fiction.
For example I think Jack Cook posted about ths a few years ago.

Bruce Carr's Amazing Escape
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"The dead chicken was starting to smell. After carrying it for several days, 20-year-old Bruce Carr still hadn't decided how to cook it . . . without the Germans catching him. But, as hungry as he was, he couldn't bring himself to eat it. In his mind, no meat was better than raw chicken meat, so he threw it away.

Resigning himself to what appeared to be his unavoidable fate, he turned in the direction of the nearest German airfield. Even POW's get to eat. Sometimes. And aren't they constantly dodging from tree to tree . . . ditch to culvert. He was exhausted!

He was tired of trying to find cover where there was none. Carr hadn't realized that Czechoslovakian forests had no underbrush until, at the edge of the farm field, he struggled out of his parachute and dragged it into the woods.

During the times he had been screaming along at treetop level in his P-51 'Angels Playmate' the forests and fields had been nothing more than a green blur behind the Messerchmitts, Focke-Wulfs, trains and trucks he had in his sights. He never expected to find himself a pedestrian . . far behind enemy lines.

The instant antiaircraft shrapnel ripped into the engine, he knew he was in trouble. Serious trouble. Clouds of coolant steam hissing through jagged holes in the cowling told Carr he was about to ride the silk elevator down to a long walk back to his squadron. A very long walk.

This had not been part of the mission plan. Several years before, when 18-year-old Bruce Carr enlisted in the Army, in no way could he have imagined himself taking a walking tour of rural Czechoslovakia with Germans everywhere around him. When he enlisted, all he could think about was flying fighters.

By the time he had joined the military, Carr already knew how to fly. He had been flying as a private pilot since 1939, soloing in a $25 Piper Cub his father had bought from a disgusted pilot who had left it lodged securely in the top of a tree. His instructor had been an Auburn , NY , native by the name of 'Johnny' Bruns.

"In 1942, after I enlisted," as Bruce Carr remembers it, "we went to meet our instructors. I was the last cadet left in the assignment room and was nervous. Then the door opened and out stepped the man who was to be my miitary flight instructor. It was J-o-h-n-n-y Bruns!

"We took a Stearman to an outlying field, doing aerobatics all the way; then he got out and soloed me. That was my first flight in the military.

"The guy I had in advanced training in the AT-6 had just graduated himself and didn't know a damned bit more than I did," Carr can't help but smile, as he remembers: "which meant neither one of us knew anything. Zilch!

"After three or four hours in the AT-6, they took me and a few others aside, told us we were going to fly P-40s and we left for Tipton , Georgia . We got to Tipton, and a lieutenant just back from North Africa kneeled on the P-40's wing, showed me where all the levers were, made sure I knew how everything worked, then said : ' If you can get it started . . go flying,' just like that !

"I was 19 years old and thought I knew everything. I didn't know enough to be scared. They didn't tell us what to do. They just said: 'Go fly!' so I buzzed every cow in that part of the state. Nineteen years old and 1,100 horsepower, what did they expect? Then we went overseas."

By today's standards, Carr and that first contingent of pilots shipped to England were painfully short of experience. They had so little flight time that today, they would barely have their civilian pilot's license. Flight training eventually became more formal, but in those early days, it had a hint of fatalistic Darwinism: if they learned fast enough to survive . . . they were ready to move on to the next step.

Including his 40 hours in the P-40 terrorizing Georgia , Carr had less than 160 hours flight time when he arrived in England .

His group in England was to be the pioneering group that would take the Mustang into combat, and he clearly remembers his introduction to the airplane.

"I thought I was an old P-40 pilot and the P-51B would be no big deal. But I was wrong! I was truly impressed with the airplane. I mean REALLY impressed! It flew like an airplane. I just flew the P-40, but in the P-51 I was part of the airplane. And . . . it was part of me! There was a world of difference."

When he first arrived in England , the instructions were, 'This is a P-51. Go fly it. Soon, we'll have to form a unit, so go fly.' A lot of English cows were buzzed.

"On my first long-range mission, we just kept climbing, and I'd never had an airplane above about 10,000 feet before. Then we were at 30,000 feet and I couldn't 'Angels Playmate' believe it! I'd gone to church as a kid, and I knew that's where the angels were and that's when I named my airplane: 'Angels Playmate.'

"Then a bunch of Germans roared down through us, and my leader immediately dropped tanks and turned hard for home. But I'm not that smart. I'm 19 years old and this SOB shoots at me. And I'm not going to let him get away with it.

"We went round and round. And I'm really mad because he shot at me. Childish emotions, in retrospect. He couldn't shake me, but I couldn't get on his tail to get any hits either.

"Before long, we're right down in the trees. I'm shooting, but I'm not hitting. I am, however, scaring the hell out of him. But I'm at least as excited as he is. Then I tell myself to calm down.

"We're roaring around within a few feet of the ground, and he pulls up to go over some trees, so I just pull the trigger and keep it down. The gun barrels burned out and one bullet, a tracer, came tumbling out and made a great huge arc. It came down and hit him on the left wing about where the aileron is. He pulled up, off came the canopy, and he jumped out, but too low for the chute to open and the airplane crashed. I didn't shoot him down, I scared him to death with one bullet hole in his left wing. My first victory wasn't a kill ; it was more of a suicide."

The rest of his 14 victories were much more conclusive. Being red-hot fighter pilot, however, was absolutely no use to him as he lay shivering in the Czechoslovakian forest. He knew he would die if he didn't get some food and shelter soon.

"I knew where the German field was because I'd flown over it, so I headed in that direction to surrender. I intended to walk in the main gate, but it was late afternoon and, for some reason, I had second thoughts and decided to wait in the woods until morning.

"While I was lying there, I saw a crew working on an FW 190 right at the edge of the woods. When they were done, I assumed, just like you assume in America , that the thing was all finished. The cowling's on. The engine has been run. The fuel truck has been there. It's ready to go. Maybe a dumb assumption for a young fellow, but I assumed so. So, I got in the airplane and spent the night all hunkered down in the cockpit.

"Before dawn, it got light and I started studying the cockpit. I can't read German, so I couldn't decipher dials and I couldn't find the normal switches like there were in American airplanes. I kept looking, and on the right side was a smooth panel. Under this was a compartment with something I would classify as circuit breakers. They didn't look like ours, but they weren't regular switches either.

"I began to think that the Germans were probably no different from the Americans in that they would turn off all the switches when finished with the airplane. I had no earthly idea what those circuit breakers or switches did, but I reversed every one of them. If they were off, that would turn them on. When I did that, the gauges showed there was electricity on the airplane.

"I'd seen this metal T-handle on the right side of the cockpit that had a word on it that looked enough like 'starter' for me to think that's what it was. But when I pulled it, nothing happened. Nothing.

"But if pulling doesn't work . . . you push. And when I did, an inertia starter started winding up. I let it go for a while, then pulled on the handle and the engine started!"

The sun had yet to make it over the far trees and the air base was just waking up, getting ready to go to war. The FW 190 was one of many dispersed through-out the woods, and at that time of the morning, the sound of the engine must have been heard by many Germans not far away on the main base. But even if they heard it, there was no reason for alarm. The last thing they expected was one of their fighters taxiing out with a weary Mustang pilot at the controls. Carr, however, wanted to take no chances.

"The taxiway came out of the woods and turned right towards where I knew the airfield was because I'd watched them land and take off while I was in the trees.

"On the left side of the taxiway, there was a shallow ditch and a space where there had been two hangars. The slabs were there, but the hangars were gone, and the area around them had been cleaned of all debris.

"I didn't want to go to the airfield, so I plowed down through the ditch and then the airplane started up the other side.

When the airplane started up . . . I shoved the throttle forward and took off right between where the two hangars had been."

At that point, Bruce Carr had no time to look around to see what effect the sight of a Focke-Wulf erupting from the trees had on the Germans. Undoubtedly, they were confused, but not unduly concerned. After all, it was probably just one of their maverick pilots doing something against the rules. They didn't know it was one of OUR maverick pilots doing something against the rules.

Carr had problems more immediate than a bunch of confused Germans. He had just pulled off the perfect plane-jacking; but he knew nothing about the airplane, couldn't read the placards and had 200 miles of enemy territory to cross. At home, there would be hundreds of his friends and fellow warriors, all of whom were, at that moment, preparing their guns to shoot at airplanes marked with swastikas and crosses-airplanes identical to the one Bruce Carr was at that moment flying. But Carr wasn't thinking that far ahead.

First, he had to get there, and that meant learning how to fly the airplane. "There were two buttons behind the throttle and three buttons behind those two. I wasn't sure what to push, so I pushed one button and nothing happened. I pushed the other and the gear started up. As soon as I felt it coming up and I cleared the fence at the edge of the German field, I took it down a little lower and headed for home.

"All I wanted to do was clear the ground by about six inches, and there was only one throttle position for me . . . full forward!

"As I headed for home, I pushed one of the other three buttons, and the flaps came part way down. I pushed the button next to it, and they came up again. So I knew how to get the flaps down. But that was all I knew.

"I can't make heads or tails out of any of the instruments. None. I can't even figure how to change the prop pitch. But I don't sweat that, because props are full forward when you shut down anyway and it was running fine."

This time, it was German cows that were buzzed, although, as he streaked across fields and through the trees only a few feet off the ground, that was not the intent. At something over 350 miles an hour below tree-top level, he was trying to be a difficult target as he crossed the lines. But he wasn't difficult enough.

"There was no doubt when I crossed the lines because every SOB and his brother who had a ..50-caliber machine gun shot at me. It was all over the place, and I had no idea which way to go. I didn't do much dodging because I was just as likely to fly into bullets as around them."

When he hopped over the last row of trees and found himself crossing his own airfield, he pulled up hard to set up for landing. His mind was on flying the airplane. "I pitched up, pulled the throttle back and punched the buttons I knew would put the gear and flaps down. I felt the flaps come down, but the gear wasn't doing anything. I came around and pitched up again, still punching the button. Nothing was happening and I was really frustrated."

He had been so intent on figuring out his airplane problems, he forgot he was putting on a very tempting show for the ground crew.

"As I started up the last time, I saw our air defense guys ripping the tarps off the quad .50s that ringed our field. I hadn't noticed the machine guns before. But I was sure noticing them right then.

"I roared around in as tight a pattern as I could fly and chopped the throttle. I slid to a halt on the runway and it was a nice belly job, if I say so myself."

His antics over the runway had drawn quite a crowd, and the airplane had barely stopped sliding before there were MPs up on the wings trying to drag him out of the airplane by his arms. They didn't realize he was still strapped in.

"I started throwing some good Anglo-Saxon swear words at them, and they let loose while I tried to get the seat belt undone, but my hands wouldn't work and I couldn't do it. Then they started pulling on me again because they still weren't convinced I was an American.

"I was yelling and hollering. Then, suddenly, they let go, and a face drops down into the cockpit in front of mine. It was my Group Commander: George R. Bickel.

"Bickel said, 'Carr, where in the hell have you been, and what have you been doing now?' "

Bruce Carr was home and entered the record books as the only pilot known to leave on a mission flying a Mustang and return flying a Focke-Wulf. For several days after the ordeal, he had trouble eating and sleeping, but when things again fell into place, he took some of the other pilots out to show them the airplane and how it worked. One of them pointed out a small handle under the glare shield that he hadn't noticed before. When he pulled it, the landing gear unlocked and fell out. The handle was a separate, mechanical uplock. At least, he had figured out the important things.

Carr finished the war with 14 aerial victories on 172 missions, including three bailouts because of ground fire. He stayed in the service, eventually flying 51 missions in Korea in F-86s and 286 in Vietnam , flying F-100s. That's an amazing 509 combat missions and doesn't include many others during Viet Nam in other aircraft types."
A crock of *&@#
Image
The truth they drove down & flew back from Austria, if I remember he bellied in as he could not get the gear down.

However this is True
LINK - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2962494.stm
Augustin Preucil came to Britain along with scores of other Czech pilots when mainland Europe fell under Nazi domination.

The first clue to Preucil's treachery came when Richard Chapman, an historic aircraft enthusiast who lives in Germany, came across some old photos from the German National Aviation Museum in Berlin.

Dating from 1941, they showed an RAF Hurricane on display among German aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:30 pm 
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Bob Hoover

Quote:
.... In 1944, on his 59th mission, his malfunctioning Mark V Spitfire was shot down by a Focke-Wulf Fw 190 off the coast of Southern France and he was taken prisoner. He spent 16 months at the German prison camp Stalag Luft 1 in Barth, Germany.

Hoover managed to escape from the prison camp by stealing a Fw 190, and flew to safety in the Netherlands....

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:59 pm 
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U.S. airmen of 354th FG examine German FW-190 fighter aircraft taken by U.S. Lt. Bruce Carr, in Ansbach Germany

Activities of United States Army Air Force 354th Figher Group at an airfield in Ansbach Germany after Victory in Europe during World War 2. United States airmen stand around a damaged German FW-190 aircraft at airfield in Ansbach Germany. The aircraft has just been belly landed without landing gear by U.S. Lt. Bruce Carr who had taken it from a German airfield near Linz, Austria. American pilot Bruce Carr is seen beside the damaged aircraft talking with fellow airmen who have gathered. He is seen shrugging his shoulders. View shifts to another FW-190 taxiing. In the cockpit is 1st Lt. Fred Fehsenfeld of the 353rd FS. He taxis on the airstrip and parks the aircraft. U.S. airmen crowd around the airplane as Fehsenfeld climbs out of the cockpit, onto the wing. American airmen examine several German FW-190 fighter airplanes, reviewing the aircraft in detail. They are seen looking in cockpits, examining pitot tube, looking at damaged tail wheel, and trying to turn the propeller of one. A U.S. P-47 fighter airplane lands at the airfield. Mountains seen in the background.
COLOR FILM of the actual event -- http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... P-47-lands

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:06 pm 
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Great video, but I don't think thats a pitot tube.... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:07 am 
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I wonder if Carr got credit for downing that plane that he swiped. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:45 am 
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Here is the story. AFTER VE-Day the 354th FG was on occupation duty and everyone was bored. Many of the group's personnel began appropiating captured Luftwaffe equiptment including car, cycles and of course for the pilots a/c for their own enjoyment. Maj. Jim Dalglish CO of the 353rd FG had his own FW-190. Bruce Carr decided to get one for himself and hitchhiked to a German airfield near Linz, Austria where he found a flyable FW-109. Has prearranged, a flight of 353rd FS P-51Ds arrived overhead to escort Carr and his prize back to the 354th FG's homebase at Ansbach. Unfortunately Carr couldn't get the gear down and slide the FW in on it's belly. After this inclident the practice of flying German aircraft was banned. Sorry no shotdown, evasion or stolen FW just one a post war adventure that turn into a whopper of a story. Fighter Ace Association Frank Olynyk has Carr's form 5 and one the page for May 1945 the flight is listed for May 8th. The 354th FG flew it's last combat mission of WWII BEFORE Carr flew the FW-190. Also the airfield in Linz where Carr took off from was occupied by British troops.........

and a good quote from Mark Twain "Falsehood goes 'round the world three times before truth gets its pants on"

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 Post subject: Re: 1945 Stolen Me 262?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:47 am 
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http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40206&hilit=bruce+carr

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