Mitsubishi G3M2 "Nell" still at Gasmata

[lmritger]

I have heard tales of how difficult it is to deal with the Papua New Guinea authorities, but I was absolutely astonished to learn that there is a "Nell" in what appears to be restorable condition rotting away next to the airfield at Gasmata. As the type is otherwise extinct (to my knowledge), it floors me that this is still there along with who knows what other stuff in the jungles around there.

Is dealing with PNG really that bad? If someone showed up with a truckload of money and local investment through employment (even if temporary), wouldn't that "move the needle" for recovering such aircraft, or is money not a motivating factor for the government down there?

Link with info: http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/g3m/3617/index.html

Lynn

[Steve Nelson]

I've always been under the impression that they feel they can make more money from the wrecks as tourist attractions than by selling them outright.

SN

[DoraNineFan]

I've always been under the impression that they feel they can make more money from the wrecks as tourist attractions than by selling them outright.

SN

I cannot see how that will be sustainable when these wrecks will probably corrode to nothing within another decade or so. There aren't cruise ships dumping a few hundred people there every few days to pay to have a look that I know of.

The locals would be better off if they trade the wrecks to build a few schools or businesses and develop a sustainable economic resource such as agriculture or manufacturing.

Last edited by DoraNineFan on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[fiftycal]

completely doable, but first you need to get locals permission and pay them something, then get the local and federal government permission and permits, that can cost a bit, pay the locals to disassemble and load it onto a barge around to kimbi, maybe 3 days? @ $65,000 per day, or helicopter (mil) @ $55,000/hour (ex moresby), then clean it, try to export it...if your lucky and you have no issues then several hundred grand later you own a wreck that people on wix can call a piece of crap

png has virtually nil roads and everything is expensive, a hotel may be $500/night, fuel maybe $10-15 per litre depending on where you are

it would be a great thing to do if you had the cash though

[fiftycal]

I've always been under the impression that they feel they can make more money from the wrecks as tourist attractions than by selling them outright.

SN

there was a nice A6M there not long ago, someone put it on a pole in the 70's to stop the natives cutting it up for beer money...then some d-head aussie decided about 5 years ago to take it down and sink it as a dive attraction

[lmritger]

Pacific Wrecks told them a lot of lies by saying that the Swamp Ghost was worth $20M.

Well, before we start swinging axes here, do we know the *context* of that conversation? Because let's be honest, I don't think that's an absurdly unreasonable price to attach to that particular B-17 given her history and her rarity- not only an E, but one of the first 512 with the remote-sighted belly turret, the only one left in the world, AND one of the only two existing Pacific B-17 veterans, this one with combat history over Java. Fully restored, I could see a 20M price tag on it, considering "common" G models with no real history to speak of are valued around half that much (if I recall correctly).

I guess a good question here would be, what arrangements were made with PNG to retrieve Swamp Ghost? And yes, it seems that offering to invest in some sustainable infrastructure to serve the communities in exchange for retrieving these valuable aircraft would be a really good trade-off for the government, but what do I know.

Lynn

[DoraNineFan]

Pacific Wrecks told them a lot of lies by saying that the Swamp Ghost was worth $20M.

Well, before we start swinging axes here, do we know the *context* of that conversation? Because let's be honest, I don't think that's an absurdly unreasonable price to attach to that particular B-17 given her history and her rarity- not only an E, but one of the first 512 with the remote-sighted belly turret, the only one left in the world, AND one of the only two existing Pacific B-17 veterans, this one with combat history over Java. Fully restored, I could see a 20M price tag on it, considering "common" G models with no real history to speak of are valued around half that much (if I recall correctly).

I guess a good question here would be, what arrangements were made with PNG to retrieve Swamp Ghost? And yes, it seems that offering to invest in some sustainable infrastructure to serve the communities in exchange for retrieving these valuable aircraft would be a really good trade-off for the government, but what do I know.

Lynn

To avoid stirring the pot, I'll edit my comment. The whole JT affair was a sorry chapter.

It looks like current PNG economy is small agriculture and small product manufacturing. The have rich mineral resources so there is a risk of the big-wigs coming in and turning the place into a moonscape while squeezing the locals out if they can get away with it, historic aircraft be damned. Probably building schools and more manufacturing opportunities would be a good option.

[fiftycal]

JT tries to stop any recoveries anywhere in the swpa, beware, he is not a friend

[lmritger]

I recognize the guy you're referring to as JT, but I don't know him from Hogan's goat- I just figured I'd bring this up for discussion because it completely blew me away to learn there was a G3M still above water and given the interest in POF's G4M Betty movement, I didn't (and still don't) really understand why there isn't more of an interest in trying to get these incredibly rare aircraft out of the fetid swamps and into a restoration shop.

Or am I perhaps overestimating the interest in Japanese aircraft which don't include the word "Zero" in their names?

Lynn

[DoraNineFan]

completely doable, but first you need to get locals permission and pay them something, then get the local and federal government permission and permits, that can cost a bit, pay the locals to disassemble and load it onto a barge around to kimbi, maybe 3 days? @ $65,000 per day, or helicopter (mil) @ $55,000/hour (ex moresby), then clean it, try to export it...if your lucky and you have no issues then several hundred grand later you own a wreck that people on wix can call a piece of crap

png has virtually nil roads and everything is expensive, a hotel may be $500/night, fuel maybe $10-15 per litre depending on where you are

it would be a great thing to do if you had the cash though

It seems like something that Mr. Harada would attempt to obtain, or Paul Allen. In the least, get it out and over to Australia until it can find a permanent home.

More efforts need to be made to get the locals on board with the idea that these wrecks need to be moved out of the elements to preserve them before they are lost. They are not a permanent income source. The locals do deserve something fair in return, though.

[fiftycal]

I recognize the guy you're referring to as JT, but I don't know him from Hogan's goat- I just figured I'd bring this up for discussion because it completely blew me away to learn there was a G3M still above water and given the interest in POF's G4M Betty movement, I didn't (and still don't) really understand why there isn't more of an interest in trying to get these incredibly rare aircraft out of the fetid swamps and into a restoration shop.

Or am I perhaps overestimating the interest in Japanese aircraft which don't include the word "Zero" in their names?

Lynn

justin taylan from pacificwrecks lobbies governments all over from the usa to png to make it extremely hard and expensive to recover aircraft, he tells people that after they are recovered the people recovering them just sell them for huge profits, its not really true because as explained above a wreck can cost a great deal of money to just recover and even then they are just usually striped out crashed rotten shells, they are just patterns and id's for the most part.

restored airworthy warbirds sell in the millions but they are not usually profitable when recovered from the jungle, for example a rebuilt/newbuilt set of P-40 ings without u/c will run about $600,000 at any shop that can do them, add $100k o/h engine, 80k prop if you can find one, a few hundred grand to rebuild the fuselage...there is not much room left in that.

i think jt just sees big numbers and gets jealous and uses the preservation angle to bs people and stirs up the natives.

he would tell natives a busted up wing rotting away is worth 500k then some restorer comes along to get it and natives will get insulted when he makes an offer.

there is a lot of interest in Japanese stuff but its really all about money, im sure if they were near civilization they would get restored.

[fiftycal]

completely doable, but first you need to get locals permission and pay them something, then get the local and federal government permission and permits, that can cost a bit, pay the locals to disassemble and load it onto a barge around to kimbi, maybe 3 days? @ $65,000 per day, or helicopter (mil) @ $55,000/hour (ex moresby), then clean it, try to export it...if your lucky and you have no issues then several hundred grand later you own a wreck that people on wix can call a piece of crap

png has virtually nil roads and everything is expensive, a hotel may be $500/night, fuel maybe $10-15 per litre depending on where you are

it would be a great thing to do if you had the cash though

It seems like something that Mr. Harada would attempt to obtain, or Paul Allen. In the least, get it out and over to Australia until it can find a permanent home.

More efforts need to be made to get the locals on board with the idea that these wrecks need to be moved out of the elements to preserve them before they are lost. They are not a permanent income source. The locals do deserve something fair in return, though.

locals just cut them up for beer money, they dont care, one of my planes had its wings and tail fin completely chopped up and scrapped to buy beer, and it was intact not long before...at least i have the fuselage

[lmritger]

justin taylan from pacificwrecks lobbies governments all over from the usa to png to make it extremely hard and expensive to recover aircraft, he tells people that after they are recovered the people recovering them just sell them for huge profits, its not really true because as explained above a wreck can cost a great deal of money to just recover and even then they are just usually striped out crashed rotten shells, they are just patterns and id's for the most part.

restored airworthy warbirds sell in the millions but they are not usually profitable when recovered from the jungle, for example a rebuilt/newbuilt set of P-40 ings without u/c will run about $600,000 at any shop that can do them, add $100k o/h engine, 80k prop if you can find one, a few hundred grand to rebuild the fuselage...there is not much room left in that.

i think jt just sees big numbers and gets jealous and uses the preservation angle to bs people and stirs up the natives.

he would tell natives a busted up wing rotting away is worth 500k then some restorer comes along to get it and natives will get insulted when he makes an offer.

there is a lot of interest in Japanese stuff but its really all about money, im sure if they were near civilization they would get restored.

The ROI angle is a fair one, fiftycal, and I apologize for not thanking you earlier for insight into the simple mechanical costs for retrieving something like this from such a remote location. As to JT (not Justin Timberlake, LOL) screwing up the works through lobbying efforts like you describe, I can only say this to him:




I honestly don't get it. What possible benefit would he get from that, other than perhaps a power trip?

Lynn

[DoraNineFan]

The ROI angle is a fair one, fiftycal, and I apologize for not thanking you earlier for insight into the simple mechanical costs for retrieving something like this from such a remote location. As to JT (not Justin Timberlake, LOL) screwing up the works through lobbying efforts like you describe.....

I honestly don't get it. What possible benefit would he get from that, other than perhaps a power trip?

Lynn

Pacific Wrecks sells merchandise and I believe is associated with one or more dive/tourist operations for that region.

No clear understanding that advocating to leave wrecks in place at this point will only hasten their demise. What doesn't rot away is going to be cut up since Asian/Indian scrap merchants are eager for material. I do believe that we are in the last few years to save anything that is left there.

Last edited by DoraNineFan on Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

[fiftycal]

because he doesnt have the resources to get them maybe?

check these:

http://taylandefensefund.org/jt/

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