Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Wed Jun 18, 2025 1:06 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:06 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:29 pm
Posts: 1484
Location: Stockton, California
Hello Mark,

I wanted to reply to your thoughts on the other thread about the judging of aircraft at Oshkosh. I was sorry that the photos were deleted with the Mustangs that used for comparison as they are good examples for a discussion on this topic.

Although I have missed a few years recently I have been judging Warbirds at OSH for 20+ years and NAHI for 10+. Things have changed a lot over the years and in my eyes all for the better. When I started back in 1990 or at OSH so I was surprised how little weight authenticity played in the judging. Back then chrome and polish took precedence just like you surmised in your post. Since then authenticity has evolved into a large part of the scoring.

I remember a good discussion way back when about this. The Chief Judge at the time said to me "I don't want Warbirds to go the way Antiques and Classics has gone where they are all worried about straight slot screws and cad finish." He was adamant on this. My reply was that Antiques and Classics didn't just wake up one day and say 'you know we are going to do it like this...'. Those details were put in place by the competition itself not just on somebody's whim. When you get two aircraft in the same class beating each other up for an award it comes down to those very details. A lot of times, if the restorer really knows his stuff and has done his homework, he will bring these details to the attention of the judging staff. This is where it is great to be a judge because you can learn about these intricate little details from a guy who just spent a chunk of his life up to his eye balls learning everything he could find on the subject. Sometimes these guys don't speak up and you need to seek them out and pick their brain to find the level of detail inside of his head. Sometimes they learn from you and sometimes you learn from them but it’s always fun.

I remember talking to Mike VadeBonCoeur back in the early 1990's when he was with Butch Schroeder's F-6D Lil Margaret at OSH. What a cool aircraft she was and hadn't been messed with much. She was full of great details at the time and I loved the discussions with Mike about those details. 'Hey Mike why did you use a vinyl type of tape to denote the air-oil strut on the landing gear leg? Why not a water transfer decal or paint?' He said 'oh, let me show you why I did it that way' and he pulled out a wartime color photograph where you could see that people had been scraping their shoe on the gear leg as they crawled up on the wing. In the photo you can see the tape in question had peeled away and the ends had separated. A water transfer decal would have simply chipped off and not pealed like in the photo. Paint would not have done that either. Very cool Mike! We had a great discussion about many other details too. I thought this kid has the eye for detail and how cool he was to have for the future of the restoration business. Look how well he has done since. It is always a pleasure to see what he brings along next as he keeps raising the bar himself.

Competition is so important for the advancement of authenticity. Lil Margaret would not do so well these days because the quality of restorations and especially authenticity has evolved greatly since she was built.

One important aspect is to have the judging staff that can recognize the details. Judges come from all walks of the Warbird movement and we all have different backgrounds. New guys will have stars in their eyes just like I did when I started out. Thankfully I had a great mentor like Billy Mitchell around to help keep my feet on the ground when I was apprenticing. Billy is still going strong too. Learning from the restorers, their aircraft and the technical material along with your own restoration and Warbird experience is helpful to the new judge. Learn with your eyes and ears instead of your mouth is the best way to go. That's not so easy for some especially when the egos get in the way.

Egos in Warbirds? Nah, say it isn't so.

For me I like to put the aircraft up on the pedestal and do the whole temporary caretaker thing. I think the aircraft is more important than the individual but this is not the norm in the warbird industry. Don't get me wrong as it’s the owner’s money and aircraft so he can certainly do what he wants. If he or she wants mirror polish, chrome and 20 coats of hand rubbed gloss then great. Have fun but be aware that problems can arise when the owner is going for an award especially at top events like EAA Warbirds at Airventure or the NAHI event at Reno.

If the competition is not there, then the aircraft could very well win in its category and may even go on to the grand awards. For me this is quite sad because although the depth of restoration might just be there the authenticity is not. This does happen more often than you might think but its those years where there is good stiff competition and it comes down to the small details is really when the judging is the most fun. Not fun for the owner of the mirror finish and custom chrome warbird as this is when authenticity shines so to speak and the chrome turns out to be dull.

Here are some examples. Mark, you like Corsairs right? Here are some shots of the Fleet Air Arm FG-1D that you mentioned in your post. This aircraft is what I would call a true restoration as its caretaker, using British hydraulic fluid, hand rubbed off the outside later layers of post war museum paint to reveal the original factory finish underneath. Wow! well done. It’s only original once and this is a Corsair treasure of the highest magnitude.

here is the engine compartment and other interior shots that will give you an idea of what was done at the Chance Vought factory. Remember this aircraft was not restored in today's sense but it has been kept in a decent environment and preserved for the last 70 years. This is how they were built and it is perhaps the only original FG-1D left

Image

Image

Image

For comparison here is an FG-1D restoration that came to OSH one year.

Image

There is no challenging that they spend a large amount of effort on this aircraft. I just have a hard time calling it a restoration. It is custom to me. The quality is there but the authenticity is not. Once again no problem if the owner wants this he is more than welcome to it but just understand that it may not be a winner if the competition is there to claim the authenticity points.

Here is another Corsair that came to OSH a different year.

Image

Similar in that the gloss finish will be found on everything. Great effort has been spent but falls short on authenticity.

Yellow oil tanks sure are popular today. Because the color coding on the oil lines is yellow, folks like to paint the components in the oil system the same color. Trouble is this was not normally done in service especially on the Corsair. I have seen fuel components painted all red and I am waiting for hydraulic lines to be striped blue and yellow someday.

These details usually come from one guy's or one shops interpretation of what a restoration should be. I think its all in the research and it is this research that makes all of the difference when it comes to authenticity. You are going to spend about the same amount of effort in a ground up restoration but the difference is the effort put in before anything is done. It all depends on what you want to end up with. Maybe the details don't matter and the gloss paint is more pleasing to the owners eyes and is easier to wipe down. Then the research really doesn't matter. But if you want to go after an award at a place a bit more prestigious than the local fly in you will need to plan out the restoration and do the research long before the first wrench is turned or rivet drilled.

Authenticity is a frame of mind and it requires immersing yourself in to the time period. You need an unquenchable thirst for knowledge and the technical information to help to drink from. Its a disease that requires patience and perseverance and is essential to achieve the best authenticity. Once you have done the research then its a matter of making a plan and keeping the project going forward without letting the authenticity slide. Once again it is basically the same amount of effort to do the restoration the difference is in the processes, paint and applying the details.

Here is another comparison:

These are shots inside of the wing with hydraulic lines and fittings in the original condition as seen in the Fleet Air Arm's FG-1D KD-431. Just as they left the factory. Painted for corrosion protection that the US Navy demanded. Note the markings on the lines with part numbers and contents identification

Image

Image

Here is one restoration

Image

Lots of effort to polish the lines but they weren't polished in the Navy. Corrosion protection was paramount.

Image

the same area in another restoration with better effort toward authenticity. Not all the way there but a lot better than the polishing...if authenticity is in the game plan.

The throttle quadrant area of KD-431

Image

And the others

Image

Image

Image

Each gets a bit more authentic and we keep seeing better and better restorations coming down the pike. This is great to see and it can be blamed on the restorers who go that extra mile to dig up more of the documentation to show why they did what they did.

A true restoration is not someones interpretation of what something should be like. It should be as it was done at the factory or at some specific point in the life of the aircraft as documented. The documentation should actually take the guess work out of the equation or at least help to make a sound estimate.

For a truly authentic restoration we are simply recreating what was done by the individuals at the factory or to what time period it is supposed to represent.

Rant over, for now anyway.

_________________
To donate to the PV-2D project via PayPal click here http://www.twinbeech.com/84062restoration.htm

We brought her from: Image to this in 3 months: Image Help us get her all the way back Image

All donations are tax deductible as the Stockton Field Aviation Museum is a 501c3 nonprofit organization. Tell a friend as the Harpoon needs all the help she can get.

Thank you!

Taigh Ramey
Vintage Aircraft, Stockton, California
http://www.twinbeech.com
'KEEP ‘EM FLYING…FOR HISTORY!'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:14 pm
Posts: 373
Location: Waukesha, WI
Taigh,
Thanks for a very well written post. Excellent points and photos to back up the statements. :drink3:

_________________
Always looking for P-51D parts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:42 am 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:26 pm
Posts: 2051
Location: Creemore Ontario Canada
Agreed, really well written and presented post.
Thanks for sharing that Taigh.

Andy Scott


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:57 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm
Posts: 7815
I concur, thanks kindly Taigh. You make great arguments, post great examples and draw nice conclusions. Very well done indeed.

M

_________________
Zero Surprise!!...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:57 am 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:11 pm
Posts: 2671
Location: Port Charlotte, Florida
Um, Taigh? Your knowledge and experience are showing... :wink:

Like the other guys said, thanks for a very well-written and well-thought-out post.

Maybe we should use the terms "restored" and "refurbished". There is a difference.

I'm a car guy, and I go to a lot of car shows. I'm frequently disappointed by over-restored cars. My specialty happens to be Ford Mustangs. I've been showing Mustangs since the 1980s. All early Mustangs had their engine bay surfaces painted matte black. Way too often, I see "restored" cars that are beautifully and authentically detailed except that their engine bay surfaces are painted gloss black. Easier to clean? Heck, yeah. "Restored"? Nope. I see a lot of Tri-Five Chevrolets that are beautifully restored in every way, except for the silly Moroso rocker covers and Mr. Gasket chrome air cleaner and other J.C. Whitney-esque shiny stuff in the engine bay. Somehow these cars end up in the "Restored" classes instead of the "Modified" classes. I don't get it.

_________________
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Port Charlotte, Florida


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:13 am
Posts: 553
I too, really appreciate the "original" and "after" pictures and the presentation. Very well done!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 9:44 am
Posts: 322
Location: Alameda, CA
Taigh,

Where does combat damage and or repairs (patches) come into a restoration. Don't see a lot of discussion or examples out thre.

Thanks,
Patrick


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:59 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:38 pm
Posts: 2662
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Quite interesting.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:09 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:51 pm
Posts: 4669
Location: Cheshire, CT
Thanks Taigh,
You gave us a good insight into what restoration should be about.
Jerry

_________________
"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:37 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:29 pm
Posts: 1484
Location: Stockton, California
Combat damage or any other mods come in to play in the research phase I was talking about above. In the restoration plan one of the biggest questions to answer is just exactly what point in time do you want to represent in the restoration.

For typical US WWII and other ex military aircraft you have many choices such as when it rolled out of the factory, as it was out of the mod center, the stateside mods prior to going overseas, in theatre mod center, as it arrived to its unit, a specific time in its combat career, war over, stateside, post war etc.

Let's say you have an actual combat veteran with existing battle damage repairs and you want it to look factory fresh. The patches would then have to go which is a shame but it's about what you want to represent.

Sadly many restorations are started with little thought toward the history that is before them. The airframe usually is ripe with clues about its history and career. What may look like extra holes that don't match the production drawings could very well be modifications for radios or other equipment added at a significant point in its career. Mods that will not show up in the tech manuals. Layers of paint or primer can give important clues to document its history. Many times this is the only information remaining and all too often these clues are the first things wiped away when the urgent desire to start restoring before the documentation, research and planning are complete.

People really get the itch to start stripping and drilling and rebuilding because the enthusiasm is at a peak when a new project shows up. This is where the beauty of the digital camera comes in to play. If nothing else take at least tens of thousands of photos before anyone does a thing. Heck, I'll take over 1000 photos just on an annual inspection. It's basically free to do so and the dividends it pays down the road are massive. You may not know what those extra holes were when you drilled that bulkhead off and threw it away but you may figure it out later and realize its significance.

Some patch might just be thought of as a lousy repair and then you find out that it was battle damage. It may seem like a waste of time but we really are temporary caretakers of these pieces of history and we need to document them for their future caretakers.

I'm in Florida for Collings ground school now but I can post photos of examples of the above when I get back if it's of interest. It's a fascinating subject' this restoration stuff, but it's not for everyone. Too many carb serial numbers for some!

_________________
To donate to the PV-2D project via PayPal click here http://www.twinbeech.com/84062restoration.htm

We brought her from: Image to this in 3 months: Image Help us get her all the way back Image

All donations are tax deductible as the Stockton Field Aviation Museum is a 501c3 nonprofit organization. Tell a friend as the Harpoon needs all the help she can get.

Thank you!

Taigh Ramey
Vintage Aircraft, Stockton, California
http://www.twinbeech.com
'KEEP ‘EM FLYING…FOR HISTORY!'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm
Posts: 616
Great info on damage history. Here is a really good example of documented damage and the Army Field repair. The oval factory air cleaner was removed and a later style square Desert air filter was installed.

Image

Image

Image

Image

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2282629 ... ref=SEARCH

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1062859 ... 8743408401


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm
Posts: 616
This is Lt. Bolton, after graduation from the Liaison School and flying L-4s in the Pacific and later a L-17 in Korea as personal pilot for MacArthur.

Image

Image

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2282629 ... ref=SEARCH

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1062859 ... 8743408401


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:16 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member

Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm
Posts: 7815
Taigh Ramey wrote:
It's a fascinating subject' this restoration stuff, but it's not for everyone.

Very much agree with the statement above. Unfortunately when it's stated ... "this restoration has set new standards for being the most authentic out there" ... more times than not it couldn't be further from the truth.

Here's the "standard" for authenticity. (original period photos posted again, but I'll refrain from posting an example of a current P-51 to avoid hurting anyone's feelings)
Lt. William B. Foster & his P-51D-5-NT-44-11222 'Jolie Helene' 359th FG 368th Fighter Squadron. (best original period photos to be seen anywhere)

Image

Image

Image

_________________
Zero Surprise!!...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:13 am
Posts: 553
" Here's the "standard" for authenticity. (original period photos posted again, but I'll refrain from posting an example of a current P-51 to avoid hurting anyone's feelings)
Lt. William B. Foster & his P-51D-5-NT-44-11222 'Jolie Helene' 359th FG 368th Fighter Squadron. (best original period photos to be seen anywhere)"


Very nice!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:21 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 3:57 pm
Posts: 2338
Location: Minnesota
Those 1945 photos of "Jolie Helene" are only an example of what an authentic Mustang should look like if the aircraft you are restoring is a P-51D-5-NT, and the goal for the restoration is to portray the aircraft at that particular time - post VE-Day, and having seen combat for at least 6-8 months. If, for instance, you're restoring a P-51D-20-NA, and you want it to be an authentic P-51D-20-NA, then there are numerous details as seen in the period photos of the P-51D-5-NT that wouldn't be correct on the P-51D-20-NA you're restoring, because of differences in sub-contractors between Inglewood and Dallas, differences in production blocks, differences in post-production/in-field modifications, etc. Furthermore, what if the goal of the restoration isn't to portray the aircraft as it looked after 6-8 months in combat, but rather only 1-month in, or just a few days after arriving with the Squadron, or the way it looked when it rolled out of the factory - or, rather, depicting a P-51D-5-NT in October 1944, or depicting a P-51D-5-NT in May 1945 - in each case, in order to be authentic, the results will be different, yet each would/should be considered authentic if the results match the specific time in which you have decided to bring the aircraft back to.

Take for instance the restoration of "Sierra Sue II" (what I consider not only the most authentic Mustang flying in the world today, but the most authentic warbird flying in the world). The goal for the restoration was to depict the aircraft at a very specific time in its life - mid-April 1945. Everything done on the restoration led to bringing the aircraft back to this specific time. (Some restorers love to do this on an aircraft that didn't even see service in WWII, but doing so by depicting a wartime aircraft, so it is even more special that this is the very airframe that was there, in Belgium and Germany, in April 1945). At this particular time in its life, it had just arrived with the 402nd FS, having only just begun flying combat missions, and had only just received its unit markings and personal nose art during the first two weeks of April 1945. With "Sierra Sue II", it was run through the restoration process as if it were being run right back through the North American Aviation factory all over again, to all and only all of the early P-51D-20-NA production block specifications for which it originated, using the NAA factory schematics for the organization and time-line of the production (restoration) of sub-assemblies and major assemblies, with sub-components and sub-assemblies only coming together into major assemblies in the order that they were at the factory. Just as it was at the factory, many parts and ribs were dipped in primer rather than sprayed - in the restoration, this process was copied, so that all of those parts had streaks/runs in the primer finishes just as they had from the factory. In most all other modern restorations I have seen, modern paints/primers are always used (with their perfect, flawless finish) that are colored to look like the period stuff - in the restoration of "Sierra Sue II", they used the original chromate zinc, down to the chemical make-up, just as was provided to the NAA Inglewood factory by their specific sub-contractor (with three different distinct hues/colors). The cockpit, as just one example, wasn't sprayed interior green until at the point in the restoration where the fuselage assembly had reached the stage at which time the cockpit was painted at the factory - resulting in authentic ghosting behind areas where, because of this, the paint couldn't reach, as well as authentic paint over-spray in other areas. Using the original primers/paints, with the original finish they provide, as well as doing all of the primer/paint applications and assembly of all of the parts all in the same order as done at the factory, there are scratches, scuff marks, and paint/primer imperfections all throughout the restored aircraft - just as it was when factory 'new'. All of the stencils across the aircraft that were applied at the factory with ink stamps, were applied that way in the restoration - requiring all of those numerous stamps to be re-manufactured - the results being that every stencil has some imperfections to it, because they were applied with stamps, just as they were originally. From afar, I often see/hear people saying that the restored "Sierra Sue II" is pretty, or that it is beautiful, but when you look at it up-close, it is not an immaculate aircraft, as they weren't, even when new.

The restoration of "Sierra Sue II" really was a true restoration as well, and not a recreation, as about 90% of the internal structure of the aircraft is original to the aircraft, and a good number of the skins are original too - with a lot of elbow grease going into making them look new again/as they looked from the factory. Across the aircraft, each skin is either shiny or dull (mill finish) based on the way each of those skins would have looked when the aircraft came out of the NAA factory - no polish. The skins themselves all have the Alcoa or Reynolds Aluminum watermarks, on one side - at the factory, generally the side with the watermarks was always made to face inward, but as seen in original period photographs of Mustangs leaving the factory, that wasn't always the case, especially on panels that were copies of the same panels on either side of the aircraft - being cut the same, but then facing on opposite sides. These watermarks, exposed on the outside surfaces of the aircraft, would wear away over time, or they would be cleaned/rubbed off if such attention was made - this is the case with the restored "Sierra Sue II", where on outer surfaces of the skins where the watermarks are present, they are for the most part now barely visible, where as they were still all quite fresh, on those panels, when the restoration was originally completed.

Throughout the aircraft, it only has all period-correct hardware (nuts, bolts, rivets, screws, fittings), some of which had to be specially manufactured new as it was otherwise unobtainable. All of the original factory worker inspection stamps and grease pencil marks are there (either preserved or reproduced as found), all of the wiring is fabric-covered to '40s spec, and the cockpit is absolutely stock with no modern modifications (everything specific to the early P-51D-20-NA production block). The aircraft has a working N-9 gunsight, a working SCR-522 VHF radio, a working 16-mm gun camera, functioning armament systems (non-firing guns of course) and fuselage tank. The aircraft is even complete with accessories - such as a flare pistol stored in the flare pistol pouch, and a drop message bag stored in the drop message bag slot, just as would be found in the aircraft when new.

Obviously, all of that only takes the aircraft up until the time that it was still new at the factory in late Nov. 1944. Taking the aircraft past that point, up until mid-April 1945 required more work. Between when the aircraft was completed at the factory and till when the aircraft finally began flying missions with the 402nd FS, there were a few Technical Orders issued for the aircraft (for the production block of Mustangs it came from), between January and March 1945. To bring the aircraft right up to the way it looked in mid-April 1945, these T.O.'s were followed in the restoration - perhaps the biggest/most noticeable is a modification that was required for the ammunition bay doors, as the earlier doors, for which it has, were separating from the aircraft in high-speed dives. Like the other details I mentioned above, "Sierra Sue II" was the first restoration to incorporate/reincorporate this T.O. (the only other Mustang flying today with this detail, that I'm aware of, is another combat-vet, "Miss Helen", which has had the modification all this time back to the spring of 1945 when it would have originally received the T.O. mod as well). In period photos of the aircraft from this time, it can also be seen to have been fitted in the field with a P-38 mirror, so this was done in the restoration. Unlike some other Mustangs, post-factory modified with a K-14 gunsight and APS-13 tail warning radar set (as seen in the photos of the Mustang Mark posted), at least in mid-April 1945, photos show that "Sierra Sue II" still had its factory-installed N-9 gunsight and did not have the APS-13 tail warning radar, so that is how the aircraft remains configured in the restoration. Other details place the aircraft at this time in its life, rather than fully factory new, like the missing Detrola beacon receiver and antenna wire, as these items were removed from the aircraft once in Theatre. Of course the finishing touch is the nose art - hand painted, using enamel paints, just like what was done originally. Also, as per the original order/timeline in which the nose art was applied, the lightning bolts were painted on last, after the lady and writing had already been painted.

And that is all just a brief summary of the restoration - I could easily double it. From the exterior of the aircraft, I dare you to find any modern item other than the tiny transponder antenna (certainly no modern VHF antenna), and from the interior, with the exception of two small comm heads that are fitted to a removable bracket that connects to the gunsight mount, I dare you to do the same. Even harder would be to find any finishes, on any of the parts, that is not either of the period, or period correct.


Last edited by JohnTerrell on Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 272 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group