Has the Cessna L-19/O-1 Market Collapsed

[L-4Pilot]

I have been trying to help a friend sell his L-19 for several months, he has had the plane for sale for a couple of years to no avail. I also see others that have been on the market for some time. I know that the large insurance premiums have some effect but it seems that the available pool of buyers for this aircraft type is very small.

Back in the early 80's you could buy one for around $18,000 and they steadily climbed in value thru the 90's. Not too many years ago an average O-1 would sell in the low to mid $60,000 range while some exceptional examples went for $100,000 plus.

I owned three L-19s but sold my last one back around 12 years ago and the market was still good then. Our gliderport paid Colemill $18,000 for an E model back around 1982.

Any ideas about what is happening with this aircraft type or is it simply indicative of aircraft or Warbird sales in general. Having been out of the L-19 market for a while I was wondering what the rest of you think is happening with these aircraft.

[Speeddemon651]

I've noticed the same also. I think it has a lot to do with the amount available on the market right now. There are plenty of buyers out there but I think most are looking for a deal or would be willing to pick up a project cheap. I bought my T-6G about a decade ago and don't think it's gained much in value but held steady. Where as other warbirds like t-34's have went up and up.

[bdk]

So tell us more about the L-19!

[L-4Pilot]

So tell us more about the L-19!

Thanks
I posted it in the classifieds a while back,

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=57698

[Neal Nurmi]

Is it a lot more expensive to insure an L-19 than something like a 180 of similar age and condition? If so, why??

[L-4Pilot]

Is it a lot more expensive to insure an L-19 than something like a 180 of similar age and condition? If so, why??

Neal, I have 3,000 hrs of TW time, several hundred hours in C-180 and 1500 hrs in L-19s, no accidents no infractions. My rate would be $3000/year for $70,000 hull and One million smooth. My T-41B for same coverage is $800/year.

The problem is they have a very high incidence of ground loops with some new unqualified owners ground looping them on the way home after purchase.

A lot of people get their tail wheel checkout in a Citabria, Cub or champ and think they can handle a L-19. I towed gliders in them for years and I can't tell you how many tow pilots I tried to check out who could not handle the aircraft and/or would not listen when you tried to tell them something.

Most people get in trouble with them trying to three point on pavement on a hot gusty day with wind switching around due to thermal activity. A lot of pilots who buy L-19s cannot land on one gear wing low in a stiff crosswind.

I tried to convince a retired Navy pilot years ago who had a ton of T-6 time that he needed to learn how to wheel land the L-19 because on days when the ridge was working the wind would be across the runway at 20+ mph. His answer was all tail wheel airplanes should be three pointed and I have a lot of TW time. The owner let him fly the plane despite my objections and three weeks later he severely ground looped the plane, folding the right wheel and tire under and damaging the gear box. He ground looped the plane so badly that there was grass between the wheel and rim. Our only tow plane was down for a month.

BTW my C-180 was expensive to insure years ago also due to the high accident rate for the aircraft.

[Neal Nurmi]

So $3000 vs $800?? Makes a 182 sound pretty good!

Thanks for the very informative response.

[fiftycal]

its not the L-19 market its the entire warbird market and everything market. but for warbirds look @ courtesy as an example:

2015 http://www.courtesyaircraft.com/sales-log#2015 50 aircraft sold or 4.1 per month
2016 http://www.courtesyaircraft.com/sales-log#2016 9 aircraft sold in almost 6 months or 1.5 per month

75% down

same with platinum, the world economy is screeeewed

[Neal Nurmi]

Regarding insurance, I just remembered a conversation a while back with a friend who for many years has operated a Cardinal RG. Her partner has an ex-Dutch military Super Cub. I was amazed to hear that her insurance is far less than his even though her airplane is far more complex.

[JohnB]

The Stearmans market is down also. A friend has two, including one he just just finished. And was saying he couldn't sell it for what he had in it ( though that not his goal, he just doesn't need two of them).



Yes, the L-19 is fun, but for the average guy, it's hard to justify a two-seat plane that costs as much as, or more, than an equally old 180.

Let me know when they get to $40k, I'll get out my checkbook.

[marine air]

Neal, a couple years ago, I had a student hot to buy a SuperCub. He had about 70 hours total time. The insurance hated the idea of a low time private pilot and tailwheel pilot getting a SuperCub. I checked the NTSB reports that year and found that they are tearing them up at about one a day in Alaska. Not to mention how many accidents aren't reported because the owner has liability only insurance.

[marine air]

A couple more thoughts; 1) It's an election year and historically the economy and sales flatten for a year. Look at the stock market now. 2) Buying power (buying power of a dollar) is at an eighteen year low. Cost of living, consummables, equipment, factors of production, are so expensive, there isn't much paycheck left over for flying toys. 3) The middle and upper middle class has been hit the hardest and they are the types that buy L-Birds and Stearmans.
The banks have record amounts of deposits to lend out. Consumer confidence is low right now. It's a buyers market on most aircraft. Depending on the direction the people of the U.S. want this country to go in the next election, next year will either be a sellers market or a glut of airplanes that don't produce revenue. This market surplus could take years to absorb if the politicians continue to decrease the size of the middle classes and lower upper class .

[L-4Pilot]

It sounds like right now would be a good time to make some cash offers on an aircraft you have always wanted. I might start shopping around some myself to see what bargains are out there. I have owned three L-19s and don't want another one but I would like to have another WW II Liaison aircraft.

If someone wants to make a cash offer on the O-1A in the ad just send me a PM. It is a very solid aircraft and the heavy E model gear legs, gravity flow fuel system, and manual flaps are great mods. It also has a FAA approved tow hook system installed. The plane flys very nice, and with the engine major overhaul done recently the plane should be trouble free for many years. Also if someone wants it painted and prettied up Sunset Eagle Aviation can handle everything for you including a new weight and balance.

It had a quality overhaul with yellow tags on case, crank etc that were sent out.

The major headaches and maintenance cost items like the pressure carb, electric and engine driven fuel pumps, flap motors are all gone. Also has a new solid state voltage regulator.

[Ken]

Nothing significant to add to the well made comments above but I will say I have been flying the Army Heritage O-1 for nearly 3 years and it does take a slightly different set of skills ... far from superhuman ... but I have always told prospective pilots that the O-1 is not a beginner's taildragger.

It is fun to fly in the local area and I, like most of us, have a deep appreciation for the service history of the plane and sacrifice of the veterans ... but I wouldn't choose words like comfortable, efficient, or fast to describe the O-1 and likely wouldn't want to own one as a personal aircraft. Of course, some might say the same about a Skyraider ...

Ken

[marine air]

When working with a new tailwheel student, I usually describe what we are flying and what they want to buy in a sort of tier system. Tier 1 = Cubs, Champs, Taylorcrafts, Tier 2 = Decathlons, Chipmunks,SuperCubs, etc. Tier 3 = L-19's, Pawnees , C-188 Agtrucks, Fairchild 24's, 220 Stearmans, Maule M-5s, and so forth. A T-6 would be a tier 5 or 6, Mustang=7. Never thought too much about it but Tier 10 would be aircraft like the Mosquito, F-82, C-46, Me-109. Aircraft that if you aren't on your game, they will get torn up almost for sure.
A few times I've skipped steps or trained a new owner that is trying to skip a few rungs on the ladder( to save themselves money and time.). It takes twice as long to get them proficient and their recidivism rate is twice as fast as a student that methodically worked their way up the ladder and built the skill and judgement to fly their new toy.
A person who is a "Tier 1" pilot attempting to fly a Tier 3 ,or a Tier 3 pilot trying to fly a Tier 7 taildragger explains a vast number of tailwheel accidents.