Warbird Information Exchange

Used aircraft market is very depressed right now. For the price of a Harley Davidson motorcycle, you can get yourself into a decent Cessna. I'd venture because of the L-birds semblance to civilian Cessna offerings, they are probably tied in to them in terms of value.

What you're seeing is that there are fewer pilots out there and fewer pilots learning to fly. Some of it is that the costs are perceived as being excessive, the old adage "How much money does it take to fly?...All of it" comes to mind, and flying, in general, with General Aviation, in particular, just doesn't seem to have that same sense of allure that it had 30+ years ago.

The low prices has me chomping at the bit to purchase a plane and learn to fly, but I have to wait until I'm done paying for my wife to get her Master's Degree. Hopefully, she'll have that cleared in another year or two.

Prices are at historic lows. You can buy most used aircraft recently for less than it costs to put them through an overhaul. The L-5's and L-19's are being offered for less than the cost to restore them. That said, choose carefully if you are a first time buyer. As I tell first-time buyers, you have two choices when you buy a vintage aircraft; you either buy flying problems or restoration problems. Flying problems ground the aircraft and turn them into restoration problems. Restoration problems, when solved, give you more knowledge of maintaining the aircraft and generally keep for more than a few years. Either set of problems you purchase is going to cost you at some point. Learning to fly it is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to maintaining vintage aircraft. Learning the maintenance, spare parts availability, and people who are OPTIMUM for maintaining your aircraft (which will probably wind up being YOU in the end) is critical.

That said, like what happened to M@chine g@ns, when you publish an article in the Wall Street Journal about how vintage aircraft are a good alternative investment (not immediately likely) they will go up again in price.

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

Put in an air conditioner, auto-pilot, G-1000, yaw damper and a ballistics chute.

Pilots today can't function without enough buttons to push

Interesting conversation with a bit of Déjà vu.

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Zero Surprise!!...

Mark, great O-1 photo.

Heck lets just post some more

US Army Photos

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One thing to keep in mind when looking at an L-19/O-1 (or an early Bonanza for that matter) is that the engines (O-470-## with numbers rather than letters, and "E" series) have not been supported by the factory for decades. Parts are expensive and somewhat less available than for most radials. There are many shops that will no longer touch them We used to, with caveats such as only estimated cost and delivery time, but pulled it from our opspec after a particularly unpleasant customer*. Realistically budget around $40K and 2-3 months for a proper engine overhaul.




*Avoid customers whose offspring just passed the Bar.

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Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

Some things I found expensive while restoring the three L-19s we did were:
1. Converting the carbon pile voltage regulators
2. Overhauling the Bendix pressure carb. I remember paying $6,000 or $7,000, 20 years ago for one overhaul. The new red diaphrams were $4,000.
3. Tach generators
4. Engine driven and electric aux pumps
5. Flap motors are like they were gold plated.

All of the old canned engines are gone now I had two years ago but you can't get them any more and even they required work before install.

What makes Bill's plane so attractive is the recent overhaul where all steel parts were sent out and yellow tagged along with the case, and cylinders overhauled. New alternator and solid state regulator, gravity flow fuel system elimination the pressure carb and both fuel pumps. Original manual flaps.

Another problem with the L-19s is many have the light gear that has been sprung and the aircraft is sitting on splayed out landing gear. These are very expensive to overhaul or replace. Bill's aircraft had a new set of the E model heavy gear legs installed.

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If the unsupported engines and accessories are that problematic, has anyone done an engine swap?

Would it be that hard to do a FWF from an early 180 or something?
Same manufacturer, same timeframe, as layman, I would think that can't be that different.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

From a practical, hotrod-mindset, will it fit point of view, it wouldn't be hard at all. You could pick up another 20% power while you are at it.
From a financial point of view, it could easily cost $100k or more - engine purchased outright with no core, new propeller, accessories, airframe modifications etc.
From a legal/regulatory point of view it might take $50K and a couple years of dealing with the FAA to get a field approval (if you are lucky) or put the airplane in "Expertimental R&D" classification with all manner of flight instructions to prove the installation well enough to create a Supplemental Type Certificate, in hopes of recouping your investment.

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Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

Just an aside here to say that this has been a really informative and excellent thread. Thanks to all for taking the time to give thoughtful and informed answers.

Carry on...

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Neal Nurmi

---Wingman Photo---

Interesting side note -Cessna actually did build an L-19 with a 180 engine (O-470-A, IIRC) and tail. The plane was adapted with a special wing for boundary layer research. It was called the 319.

It still flies to this day (with a stock wing) at the Raspet Flight Research Lab at Mississippi State. I personally have about 30 hours in it, from many years ago. I will say I'm not surprised the market has softened for Bird Dogs; fewer pilots every day, and to be honest, in my mind there are more fun-for-the-dollar options out there for someone looking for a plane to tool around in to fly-ins and airshows.

Some well informed posts on here. Just in the sense of basic economics, supply/demand. If there are more active sellers than purchasers, prices drop. The story of the individual that had their plane on the market for years is simply asking too much. There are fewer pilots, fewer tail wheel pilots even still. For the pilot looking to own their own bird and not rent (fewer still), the L-19 is an expensive bird to own. High insurance premiums, high parts value, all factors that drive market value of an aircraft down. If I was interested in a Fighter grip TW airplane, Id get into an RV-8 well before an L-19. Flying is all about bang for your buck...at least for us bottom 99.9%'s.

I was taught to land the 172 this way, on the upwind main, with the wing low and use the rudder to hold the nose on the centerline. Instructor said this is the way to land in any crosswind...

Enter the Super Dog, http://www.birddogsbynoyes.com/

We looked at this option a couple of years ago when we needed engine work on our Birddog, but the price and the loss of authenticity made us tough it out until our engine was done.

David

Steve Noyes really knows his stuff and he builds extraordinary aircraft.

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