Data-plate Mustang Restorations

[Flybipe]

I'm interested in learning more about what appear to be data-plate restorations of Mustangs. There are a number of shops out there offering turn-key trophy winning Mustang restorations, sure. But are most people looking to get into a top notch P-51 buying a flyer in need of restoration and then taking it to one of these shops to have it restored or are you better off (i.e. cheaper/faster) to obtain paperwork and a data plate and start from scratch a'la new build? Seems that restoring a flyer would certainly be more authentic assuming you could save original sheet metal, but what if you don't care as much about authenticity? Seems it would be easier to start with a new-build airframe and outfit with NOS and refurbished parts?

In other words, assuming one wanted to acquire a top notch mustang and enjoyed being part of the "restoration/building" side of a project (at least from a project management perspective) what's the best way to proceed?

[marine air]

Some of the best options include:

1) Be a sponsor of a CAF P-51. By far the cheapest way to get into flying a real P-51
2) Get a couple partners and buy a flyable one. You'll only be out maybe $750K and can share expenses.
3) Commission someone to build you a Jurca 1:1 scale Spitfire. You'll only be out maybe 10 years and a million bucks. It's not a P-51 but maybe a great substitute.
4) Buying the paperwork, or a burned out wreck and in essence building up a replica will set you back two or three million bucks. Virtually all the spare parts have been used up. New build parts are extremely expensive.
5) Buy a Yak and paint it like a P-51. Complete with invasion markings, etc. It'll look bad but hey, you will fool a couple people.

[fiftycal]

getting a good merlin these days is hard, same with allisons, too many hoarders who dont sell them for planes or just put them in boats/tractors

[JimH]

The paperwork for a mustang is probably worth 30-50k, there are several Merlin builders that have plenty of parts, it will set you back 175-250k depending on which builder you choose. The days of a 750k Flyable mustang are over. That will get you a good project. Very few Mustangs flying today are 100% original...North American isn't known for its great metallurgy. They were throw away airplanes not meant to last more than 100 hours. A ground up build 3.5-4m...a rebuild 2.5.

I had a recent discussion with an insurance agent and the consensus is 50-100 hours of T-6 time unless an owner thinks different.

Jim

[Scooby]

A collegue of mine bought his Cavalier Mustang in 1977 for $10 K. She was a Cavalier Mustang and was assembled in 1968. I did his maintenance in the 90's. In 93 we had the engine rebuilt for $28k.

He sold it in the late 90's for $1.5 million, have times changed. She only had 2,500 hours when he sold it, the lowest in the world at the time.

She still flies as American Beauty.

[marine air]

My dad bought his Cavalier mustang in 1977 for $75K . That was the going rate. I think the mustangs were $10K around 1970.

[Lynn Allen]

My dad bought his Cavalier mustang in 1977 for $75K . That was the going rate. I think the mustangs were $10K around 1970.

They were as I remember seeing an Cavalier ad many years ago...

[JohnB]

Stephen Wilkinson, a frequent poster here, did a pilot report for FLYING magazine in 1969 on a Cavalier. At that time, base price was $76,000.

The owner of the plane he flew was Rufus Applegarth (N2051D), I believe the a.c. is airworthy after a long restoration.

After Applegarth, it was owned by a local man, John Shaufhausen who sold it and bought a Corsair he flew for Black Sheep Squadron. (His son is still in the area and flies Ernie Gann's old Bucker Jungmann which a friend restored for him).
In 1973, he sold it to Richard Bach who promptly crashed it. The next year I met Bach and asked about the Mustang, his reply was the plane seemed determined to crash itself.

Last edited by JohnB on Mon May 30, 2016 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Stoney]

One sold for $14k at Torrance, CA 1966, paint scheme was civil/brown

[4RG.I.'S]

I'm interested in learning more about what appear to be data-plate restorations of Mustangs. There are a number of shops out there offering turn-key trophy winning Mustang restorations, sure. But are most people looking to get into a top notch P-51 buying a flyer in need of restoration and then taking it to one of these shops to have it restored or are you better off (i.e. cheaper/faster) to obtain paperwork and a data plate and start from scratch a'la new build? Seems that restoring a flyer would certainly be more authentic assuming you could save original sheet metal, but what if you don't care as much about authenticity? Seems it would be easier to start with a new-build airframe and outfit with NOS and refurbished parts?

In other words, assuming one wanted to acquire a top notch mustang and enjoyed being part of the "restoration/building" side of a project (at least from a project management perspective) what's the best way to proceed?

The answer really is it depends... There are only so many complete ones out there and only so many projects left. Even a "data plate restoration" needs a data plate or serial number to start, you can't just make up a number and say it's a mustang.
A dream since childhood was owning a P-51. Not rich, not a pilot, not a chance in h3ll I'll ever actually really fulfill that dream. But... after dreaming and thinking about it for the last 40+ years, I bellied up to the mustang project bar last year. Now, in my own twisted mind I am a P-51 mustang "owner". In truth that is completely incorrect, but it's as close as I'll ever be so that's my own weird way of looking at, good or bad. It is a pile of parts, some history, some paperwork, and an N number saying it's a P-51. I consider it an investment that I am collecting parts for to make a larger pile (P-51 part donations GLADLY accepted ). My idea would be a new build/rebuild, with modern metal, modern primers, modern standards and modern safety built in. These old girls as stated before, were just not meant to last long, certainly not this long. There are parts available, there are merlins available, more than you may think! In the end either when I get sick of the project taking up space or I pass, it goes to someone else that can continue the dream. Maybe they build it, maybe they just add parts, but in it the memory and honor for those that flew it and ones like it in service to their country will live on.

[eallen]

This was posted on the California Warbirds face book page in 2014...seems to fit into this discussion.

[J. Thompson]

Buy a Thunder Mustang. There's a half-dozen for sale if you look, and it will out-perform a real P-51 in nearly every aspect.

- J

[Scooby]

I stand corrected, although I have the Edmonton Journal copy that shows the five Mustangs flying over the city (five were purchased in the local area) and the reporter said each buyer paid $10K.

I wonder if the reporter left a zero off ($100 K). Which would make sense for 76k in Canadian funds.

All these years I thought he paid $10 K.

[JohnB]

Buy a Thunder Mustang. There's a half-dozen for sale if you look, and it will out-perform a real P-51 in nearly every aspect.

- J

That would work f you just want to fly it, but probably not if you want to fly one AND make money in the long run.
A Mustang is an investment as well as an airplane.
The same way someone might buy an authentic Cobra...as opposed to a Cobra replica.
If you just want to have fun either will work, but only one will appreciate in value.
The trouble is...not everyone can financially stretch to the cost of the "real" deal.

[T J Johansen]

The late Jack Kistler bought his 51 for $13.000,- in 1966. And he told me he thought he had paid a kings ransom at the time.
I have spoken to different pilots who bought their Mustangs from Aero Enterprises in the early 60s. They all say on an individual basis that they paid $8.000,- for the airplanes. A far cry from the surplus auctions at McClellan AFB only a few years earlier, where they went for around $1.000,-.

T J