Warbird Information Exchange

Hey Guys!

I don't mean to open up a can of worms here but I've been meaning to post a thread to get something off my chest and to also seek some imput from other fellow WIX members.

I guess I could be considered new to this forum and to the warbird community in general. You guys are an absolute wealth of knowledge and I truly enjoy interacting with other people that have the same interests in warbirds. 99.9% of the people I've talked to and have dealt with over the last couple years have been a tremendous help to me in my search for parts and information (mainly turret stuff). However, I have noticed that there is a small fraction of warbird parts dealers/collectors out there that seem to enjoy frustrating those of us that are on never ending searches for rare, hard to find warbird items. I've encountered numerous instances where I've been contacted by somebody from ads I've placed, or through word of mouth, and told that they have the parts I'm looking for. Many times they will go so far as to even send pictures of the parts and even prices. When I contact them and tell them I'd like to purchase the parts...I either never hear from them again...or they decide they don't want to sell the parts...or that they're still available, but at a higher price. I even had a dealer/collector respond with "...how much is it worth to you?" As much as it pains me to say it, I believe there is a small fraction of unscrupulous parts dealers/collectors out there that just enjoy pulling our legs by toying with people. It's extremely frustrating and has somewhat soured my enthusiasm for the hobby.

I've spoken with other people in the warbird community that are restoring aircraft or turrets (like me), and they have also shared "horror stories" of similar dealings with these folks. Some have mentioned that the hard part is not finding the warbird parts...it's the months of trying to convince the person to sell the part (without giving up your first born in the process).

Again, I'm not out to point fingers or to cause trouble...but just wanted to put this subject out there and see if others have had similar problems. Feel free to share your stories!

John

Well, these stories sound pretty much run of the mill to me. At least you've never had someone stiff you on a part you paid for... now that's frustrating! I've found that the hunt for parts, to be honest, is one of the most enjoyable aspects of restoring an aircraft. You meet all sorts of interesting and nice people along the way. Some of the people I've met have turned into very close friendships. In fact, I would say that the frustrations of not being able to get a part because someone is being churlish or greedy more or less pale in comparison to those friendships I've made through the hunt in the first place. That's what life's all about I guess, no matter what pursuit you endeavor to chase. Keep at it... you'll find out what I mean.

Cheers,
Richard

Been there, done that... Paid for stuff, never shipped or delivered.
Promises after promises, plus excuses as to why the item(s) were
never shipped (this hurricane happened, than that hurricane happened,
something fell on the part and crushed it, etc.), more promises to
purchase a new/replacement part from Lance Aircraft Supply on my behalf
and then drop-ship them to me, never done of course....

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I learn quick!

Bela P. Havasreti

Richard & Bella,

Thanks for your responses...I guess I'm not alone when it comes to these types of experiences. Actually I feel fortunate as to never had anyone stiff me (yet) on a part I've paid for.

As with any hobby, I guess you're always going to find one or two characters out there that will try to take advantage of others and make it difficult for all the rest.

John

Sometimes, this is how my day goes.

Phone rings.

"Do you have 'X'?"

Me- "Yes, I do."

"Will it work with 'Y'"

Me- "I'm not sure, but I recommend you check your manual or talk to your A&P before buying it?"

"Why can't you tell me if it will work."

Me- "I've never worked on a 'Y', and I don't have any manuals on 'Y'"

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda, we end the conversation on a nice note.

Phone rings. Right after I go look at X to see if I can figure out if it will work with Y.

"I see you have 'C' in stock."

Me- "Yes, ready for shipment, but crating will be extra."

"I'm working on a 'G', and this will go great with it."

Me- "Yes, great that somebody is working on 'G' we need more of those flying."

"Well, I found 'C' at Banair for $3000 less- can you give me a better price?"

Me- "I can't give a break on the price."

We have more pleasant conversation about how warbirditis can't be treated, and end it on a pleasant note. I go check Banair and their price is 3000 more than my price.

Phone rings.

"I don't know what I want, but I want to have warbird phone sex."

Me "Yes, the P51 is cool. No, the USN is really after Rob Rohr. No, I've never been to the whorehouses near Subic Bay. I don't think the dripping will stop but you ought to see a doctor about that if you get a chance. I wish 100 LL was free, too. Well, keep trying and maybe someday they'll expunge your record and you can get back to ground school for your private license. Yeah, restraining orders suck."

We end the conversation on a pleasant note and I go back to what I was doing before my boring life was made exciting by these calls.

This is a timely topic because yesterday, while in the middle of cutting I-beams up for my new hangar, I got a phone call and was not on my best behavior in talking with the person who made the inquiry. But it illustrates my point. After inquiring about the part, the person was asking me if what I had would make a good display in his den or office. Anybody who knows me KNOWS that I just LOVE to see warbird parts go into dens or offices. But not only am I busy and irritated by the nature of the call- now I have to hold the hand of the customer to assist him in making an important "investment" for his den or office. What I didn't do was say that I really didn't want to sell the item to him and thank him for his inquiry, and hang up. Because I didn't do it, we got to the point where the customer was irritated by my demeanor. My fault, but since I am human, I'll pay for it later in my life.

I have a few expectations of people who are interested in antique/vintage/warbird aircraft. First, I want them to THIRST to know all they can about the aircraft/artifact because they recognize that the technology which produced and maintained it is disappearing. Second, they are willing to go to the well of knowledge, wherever it is located, to acquire this information. Third, they put some sweat equity in their aircraft. Fourth- PUT IT IN, ON OR NEAR AN AIRPLANE AND DON'T HIDE IT IN A F***ING DEN OR OFFICE! When a customer walks through the door and is missing some of these attributes, it makes it harder for me to deal with them. I don't set out to alienate customers, but sometimes our philosophies don't meet and we don't get along well.

I don't in any way want to excuse bad trade habits or business practices. But you have to learn patience on many different levels in dealing with warbirds. If you don't, you will be very unsuccessful in your efforts, whether they be actually building components or aircraft, or just collecting.

Hi John...sounds as though you've had some dandy's calling you at Forgotten Field...LOL!

I totally understand your position and frustration when dealing with some of these folks. I guess some of these customers can be just as challenging to deal with as some dealers. I also hope you didn't assume I was in any way grouping you into the "unscrupulous" catagory. I've done business with you in the past (the K-4 gunsight looks great by the way) and have had no problems.

You brought up a good point about collectors/dealers not wanting to see hard to find parts being displayed in some den or office. In a perfect world I think we all would like to see rare, hard to find parts make their way onto an actual aircraft...or even better yet...a flying aircraft. I've encountered this myself during my searches for turret stuff. On a few occasions I've inquired into ball turret parts and have been given the "third degree" interrogation by some dealers asking "what're you going to use the part for?"...."what kind of project is it?"...."is it a static display project or for an actual aircraft?"..."is it going on a flying aircraft?"....etc. You finally get the impression that if you don't answer the questions correctly, and to their satisfaction, then you can't purchase the part. Again, I think it goes back to the resistance of seeing hard to find parts being sold to people that have no plans of ever restoring anything...and to just hang it on a wall. In a way I can relate to the dealers frustrations of seeing this happen because these parts are then "underground" until such time as the buyer decides to off-load it onto the parts market, or worse yet...have his wife pitch it in the trash as "junk."

John

When I call someone looking for parts, and find that:

a.- they are trying to sell me a part for way much more than what it costs.

b.- they ask me "how much money are you going to spend"

c.- Tell me heroic sagas of the part in question, how it was used in the very same airplane in which a war hero trained.

From a to c, I thank them, and take my money and business elsewhere.

If they don't want to sell the part to me, for whatever number of reasons, it is their call; it is their thingamajig, and if they don't have it, maybe someone else does.

If they don't need my dollar as much as the next guy, well, nothing I can do about it.

I spent many years in the gun-show business, and have basically heard and seen every spiel and move, and what happens in that field, is also applicable to aircraft parts.

It is also fair, to note that I have had the pleasure of meeting really nice people whose ethics and behavior have been nothing short of perfect.

Saludos,


Tulio

John, what the %$@! Why are ya telling everyone about our private conversations?? Man, that isn't right! And as far as my license is concerned, like I said...It's not like I did this on purpose!!

Very interesting thread this!

I was wondering on similar lines about the effect of the internet - ie restoring 'before' and 'after' if became popular - I havent quite squared the circle -

Before

Parts were perhaps harder to come by but it was on a 'who knows who' basis, ie you had to work to acquire the knowledge, use the telephone and hunt down bits, got and see them (before diggy pics) or rely on instamatic snaps before sending your hard earned to someone you'd never met (no escrow or Paypal). This meant, I suppose, that parts, rare or otherwise would have a better chance of ending up on an aeroplane, flying or not, as parts were traded in those circles to the exclusion of the majority of a non-industry public.

After

We can find parts much more easily, more dealers, more websites, more detail, better(?) payment protection, instant comms and a wider net to cast.

But, this being a double edged sword, Mr Stockbroker, who fancies a K-14 gunsight, MKII reflector, spitfire seat, T-6 prop or whatever in his 'den' can find them just as easily - outbid those who are on a budget restoring their bird and instantly push prices up.

Further, the trend over the last few years to 'stock' airframes means that more restorers want the gunsight, placards, armament, ammo boxes etc to make their stock bird, but are now competing with Mr Stockbroker for a single item.

Result, less items, higher prices, bigger market. I guess the only people that 'win' are the Sellers.

Conversely, we can sit at home on the internet and search from Aberdeen to Yosemite and often source parts which 'turn' up following the passing of a relative, closing of a Museum etc which otherwise we would not hear about.

The premier aerojumble at Shoreham in the UK has been shrinking year after year, mainly because of the ebay phenomenon. The sellers take the view, so i understand, that there is not much point getting up at 4am to set out your stall when you can bash your stock on the web and let the punters fight it out and 'price' the item for you - I'm sure we all have tales (yes I'm guilty too!) of bashing a part on ebay expecting twenty quid and after bidding ends being gosmacked at the end price often many times its perceived value to me.

So great for selling, but again the frustration abounds when that instrument, part etc you have been after for ages appears and so does a bidding war, again leaving you gobsmacked at the end price, either because you think you paid over the odds (own fault i appreciate but what are 'the odds'! you paid it!) or being beaten by some astromonical sum.

As i said, i havent squared the circle yet. The internet/ebay - blessing or a curse- I guess it depends what we're doing at the time!

Best regards

TT

_________________
Life's a Beech and an Armed T-6

That's the BEST post I've read on a Warbird site for months!

More seriously, it's worth adding the thought that obsolete parts and machines go through a cycle, where the den wall is a phase that isn't necessarily a disaster. (The cycle is primary user; secondary user; scrapyard-no-value; regrowth of interest in that era; increasing value; heritage user...) As you can't have butterflies without caterpillars first, warbirds need hoarders. Den hoarders are just another flavour, and provided the part isn't irretrievably messed up by being mounted, it's not the end of the world.

We should remember that the sensible value for warbirds and parts is nothing - because it's all second-hand junk of no practical use (unless you are planning a small second-had war) to anyone...

_________________
Raven

Raven,

You bring up a good point...as much as we would all like to see parts go to an actual aircraft (flying or static) there are still worse places for a part other than on a den or office wall....namely the junk pile!

The den/office wall is also indoors and in a controlled environment which means the part should not deteriorate any further than it already has. This is a far better environment than sitting outside in someone's backyard, slowly rusting away while being exposed to the elements.


Going back to John's humerous posting about his typical day at the office fielding phone calls...one of my more memorable one's goes like this.

(FIVE MONTHS AGO)
(Receive email) "I saw your listing in Barnstormers about wanting ball turrets parts...here are some pics of the parts I have available if you're interested."

(My reply email) "Thanks....I've been searching for these parts for the better part of two years. Please send me prices and shipping costs."

(No reply from dealer) 1 month

Send another email with same inquiry.

(No reply from dealer) 2 months

(I call him) "Hey...this is John...I never heard back from you regarding the prices on the parts"

(Dealers response) "Oh yeh...sorry about that...been really super-busy lately...I'll email you in a couple days with the prices." (real hurry to get off the phone)

(No reply from dealer) 3 months

Send another email inquiry.

(No reply from dealer) (4 months) Leave phone message basically telling him to name his price and if he's no longer interested to please just let me know.

(No reply from dealer) (5 months) Leave message on answering machine same as above.

After over 5 months I try calling once again and he finally answers the phone. When I ask him about the parts he gets real snippy and replies "they're no longer available...quit calling." Before I'm able to say "that's all I wanted to know" he hangs up on me. I then proceed to send him an email apologizing if I annoyed him by my repeated inquiry attempts and then proceed to lecture him on the common courtesy of replying to inquiries in a timely manner and to please be up front and honest with people in the future. Needless to say I did not get any kind of response...go figure????

John

How about this one... A good while ago, a pair of Warren McArthur
seats were listed on a well known internet warbird parts page. The
price was admittedly attractive (several hundred dollars less than I
just paid for a pair of Schick Johnson seats), so I call the guy up
and buy them on the spot. Guy didn't accept PayPal or anything,
so I sent him a check the next day for the seats + shipping.

Good two+ weeks goes by, no seats so I call.

me: Hi ____, was just wondering if you had a chance to ship
thos seats?

Him: Oh, uh... there was some kind of mix up, sorry.. The seats
were already sold to someone else....

Me: That's odd, when I called you to buy them, you said I was
the first guy to call on them....???

Him: Uh... Um.. yeah, sorry about that, my partner sold
them to someone else... I'll send your check back.

So I waited patiently for my check to get sent back (it did arrive,
un-cashed).

Several weeks goes by, and guess what shows up on the same
internet site for sale? Same pictures, same seats, only now
the price is about double what it was when I "bought them"!!!

Sent the guy an e-mail asking if "these seats" were really for
sale, or were they sold to someone else already as well?
Needless to say, never got a reply....

Bela P. Havasreti