No tire kickers
Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:25 pm
For pure, basic, atavistic reasons, the term "No tire kickers" [or, no time wasters] when associated with an aviation ad, gets my blood boiling.
Sure, the pure commercial exploitation aspect cannot be denied, but how are we going to support the next generation of air-minded people?
We fence our airports and limit access to those privileged few who own an airplane, or have direct access to one.
Long gone are the days where you could just walk into an airfield, and ask questions. Someone who could see the spark in your eye, would take the time to share with you his experience, and probably take you under his or her wing, and help to form and develop your love for all things aircraft.
Not for me, I have done a little flying and what I do aviation related nowadays , is also satisfying, do it for the kids, who are indeed, the future of aviation.....
Tulio
Sure, the pure commercial exploitation aspect cannot be denied, but how are we going to support the next generation of air-minded people?
We fence our airports and limit access to those privileged few who own an airplane, or have direct access to one.
Long gone are the days where you could just walk into an airfield, and ask questions. Someone who could see the spark in your eye, would take the time to share with you his experience, and probably take you under his or her wing, and help to form and develop your love for all things aircraft.
Not for me, I have done a little flying and what I do aviation related nowadays , is also satisfying, do it for the kids, who are indeed, the future of aviation.....
Tulio
Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:36 pm
here here!
Tom P.
Tom P.
Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:46 pm
I think this boils down to the first person you come in contact to.
One time I stopped by a small uncontrolled airport to look around. A kid working on the line gave me two options; go to the office and buy one of those introductory flight lessons, or leave.
I chose the latter.
Funny thing was, I used to work there, and some time later rented some hangar space there. The place looked more prosperous than before, but not due to that guy’s attitude.
One time I stopped by a small uncontrolled airport to look around. A kid working on the line gave me two options; go to the office and buy one of those introductory flight lessons, or leave.
I chose the latter.
Funny thing was, I used to work there, and some time later rented some hangar space there. The place looked more prosperous than before, but not due to that guy’s attitude.
Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:55 pm
I can understand security - unfortunately that is the world we live in. But here in Wendover (granted it is small and not heavily traveled) we try to be accomodating and let folks get a limited access ramp pass, a quick lesson on ramp etiquete and what not to open and they can check out the flight line.
Now if they want to look at the warbirds in the hangars they need an escort - that is a different matter - but really - the curiosity is where it all begins. You should see the wide eyed kids on Young Eagles day!
Tom P.
Now if they want to look at the warbirds in the hangars they need an escort - that is a different matter - but really - the curiosity is where it all begins. You should see the wide eyed kids on Young Eagles day!
Tom P.
Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:06 am
I'll play devils's advocate here and offer a different perspecitive...I had a '69 Vette project up for sale on eBay several years ago. Had a guy that seemed to be very interested in it. Exchanged several emails with details and descriptions of the condition of various items. Finally got close to the end of the auction and the guy wanted to call and talk to me about some very specific items on it that didn't appear to be correct to him. I took off on that Saturday and went to the hangar and spilled out enough stuff to get the car unburied so that I could answer his questions.
By the time the auction was over, this one guy had used up almost 30 hours of my time, caused me to turn down overtime equal to 28 hours regular pay and caused the complete upheaval of the hangar storage. To cap it off, after spending nearly 3 hours on the phone answering his questions on that Saturday, he says that he just doesn't want to tackle a complete rebuild right now. I nearly broke the phone throwing it into the truck.
I don't mind someone coming by to talk and look some, or discuss one of my projects, but there has to be a limit as to how much time I can allow to be taken from my work hours at the hangar. I am never rude to people, but I try and let them know in a gentle manner that my time at the hangar is very limited and I do have a certain amount of work that has to be accomplished before I can stop and go home. Having had my primary shop located on a fairly busy GA field really had me overrun with visitors during good weather and severely slowed my work down. This is one of the two main reasons that I am now working to relocate my main shop to the house so that I can better control access to it and severely curtail unexpected visitors.
By the time the auction was over, this one guy had used up almost 30 hours of my time, caused me to turn down overtime equal to 28 hours regular pay and caused the complete upheaval of the hangar storage. To cap it off, after spending nearly 3 hours on the phone answering his questions on that Saturday, he says that he just doesn't want to tackle a complete rebuild right now. I nearly broke the phone throwing it into the truck.
I don't mind someone coming by to talk and look some, or discuss one of my projects, but there has to be a limit as to how much time I can allow to be taken from my work hours at the hangar. I am never rude to people, but I try and let them know in a gentle manner that my time at the hangar is very limited and I do have a certain amount of work that has to be accomplished before I can stop and go home. Having had my primary shop located on a fairly busy GA field really had me overrun with visitors during good weather and severely slowed my work down. This is one of the two main reasons that I am now working to relocate my main shop to the house so that I can better control access to it and severely curtail unexpected visitors.
Re: No tire kickers
Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:02 am
Tulio wrote:For pure, basic, atavistic reasons, the term "No tire kickers" [or, no time wasters] when associated with an aviation ad, gets my blood boiling.
Sure, the pure commercial exploitation aspect cannot be denied, but how are we going to support the next generation of air-minded people?
We fence our airports and limit access to those privileged few who own an airplane, or have direct access to one.
Long gone are the days where you could just walk into an airfield, and ask questions. Someone who could see the spark in your eye, would take the time to share with you his experience, and probably take you under his or her wing, and help to form and develop your love for all things aircraft.
Not for me, I have done a little flying and what I do aviation related nowadays , is also satisfying, do it for the kids, who are indeed, the future of aviation.....
Tulio
Seems a little harsh, especially considering that you were just given the VIP treatment in Breckenridge by the Ezells. Ezell Aviation is a business, with many very expensive employees and millions of dollars worth of projects in the works. You were not going there looking for a restoration shop to award a contract to, you just wanted a free tour and to take up some of their valuable time. It's your hobby, but for many it's also a business.
The point I'm making here is that just because it's warbird aviation and you're passionate about it, doesn't mean that you should be allowed to have open access to every project or plane on the market. On the whole you will find that many, many people involved with warbirds do go out of their way to grant access and answer questions, but I see nothing wrong when a line is drawn and you are asked to not interfere with a sellers valuable time.
I go out of my way to give access to kids and answer their questions. The only time I ever seem to have a problem is when a parent starts acting like just because they've paid for admission to an airshow that they are entitled to treat my airplane like a ride a Disneyland (here kids, climb up on the wing so Dad can take a photo...or Johnny swinging from the pitot tube while completly unsupervised).
Gaining access in warbird aviation is easy, if you ask correctly. If you act like it's some sort of God given right then I think you will find more gates, fences and locks.
Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:22 am
I has always been amazing to me at how many parents feel it is okay (without asking permision) to have there kids climb up on the wing or climb into the cockpit so they can take photgraphs. If I went out to the parking lot where their BMW was parked and put sombody on the hood or opened the door and stuck him in the car they would have the police there.
Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:58 pm
Hi Steve
I agree completely with your post - I also think it goes down a lot better if you are polite and ring ahead to visit - not just front up and expect a red carpet - planning a visit is 80% of the work in my opinion and builds better relationships for future visits.
Regards
John P
I agree completely with your post - I also think it goes down a lot better if you are polite and ring ahead to visit - not just front up and expect a red carpet - planning a visit is 80% of the work in my opinion and builds better relationships for future visits.
Regards
John P
Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:12 pm
I've been on both sides of the tire kicker thing. Almost everyone I've met has been very cool in showing me their aircraft and answering my questions, and I've got to hang out with warbird folks completely out of my class and they've been nothing but generous to me.
I've also been on a static line with a bunch T28's that were fueled at 10am and it's now 1pm in the valley and there's a guy and his wife and kid in a stroller smoking a cigarette touching the prop of the plane. When I asked him nicely, with a big smile, not to smoke and explained that he's 5 feet away from a lot of 100LL and that those liquid pools under the planes are hydraulic oil, oil oil, and 100LL, he got tight and started flipping me s**t. The CAP kids had to escort the loving family away. Or the guys who bring their lawn chair inside of the roped off area, sit down under the wing, and fire up a smoke. Or coming back to the plane and seeing a stranger standing up inside the baggage compartment. Or family guy sitting his kids on the wing of a neighbors L-39 for pictures.
I always try to be nice, thats the way everyone has been to me. I do get tight at Rude and very Bold people though. Some folks just aren't polite, at all. I can see why some guys get tight about strangers around their airplanes.
I'm a newbie at airshow participation. What gets me mad, the older cats (plane owners) take in stride. I try to take my cue from them and be unfailingly polite. No amount of rude people will dampen those weekends anyway. Blue wristband baby. It's beautiful, and it carries responsibility.
As far as selling stuff, I know I got a thin skin. I don't think I could do that for a living. In response to a query on another forum, and due to a rapidly changing personal situation, I responded to a question about projects. I said I'd sell mine. It's entry level, hence the very low price. I know that a couple of the parts are worth the entire price of the project. I'm not totally retarded. I said that the project had to go in it's entirety, I will not part it out. My friends think I'm crazy and that I should just part it out, it's worth more that way. I explain to them that I am not in the parts business, or the parts storage business. Besides me being lazy, A couple people took a few years putting this project together, it was a good deal to me, and it will be a good inexpensive start for someone else in a better situation than me.
I said I'd sell it, gave the price, which was noted as being very, even extremely flexible, and the fact that I wouldn't part it out. Almost everyone who inquired was cool, even the part out guys. When I explained it wasn't going to happen they were cool with it. There were a couple three cats that proceded to string me along for three plus weeks though, wanting the one part. When they finally realized that it wasn't going to get parted out, they proceded to denigrate the project, and tell me I'm a dips**t in a thousand words or more.
I get the Tire Kicker thing now. On the selling side anyway. I see beautiful things on places like barnstormers with the "no tire kickers" and having no price, and I can't bring myself to ask them, because I would be tire kicking. Like I said, I got a thin skin for that kinda stuff, and I know what its like.
I'm over the "I'd rather see it be Coors Light cans than sell any piece of it to that as****e" stage. It's gotta be gone soon, either sold or donated, but I'd rather take a bath on it, than see any of it go to any of those cats.
I've also been on a static line with a bunch T28's that were fueled at 10am and it's now 1pm in the valley and there's a guy and his wife and kid in a stroller smoking a cigarette touching the prop of the plane. When I asked him nicely, with a big smile, not to smoke and explained that he's 5 feet away from a lot of 100LL and that those liquid pools under the planes are hydraulic oil, oil oil, and 100LL, he got tight and started flipping me s**t. The CAP kids had to escort the loving family away. Or the guys who bring their lawn chair inside of the roped off area, sit down under the wing, and fire up a smoke. Or coming back to the plane and seeing a stranger standing up inside the baggage compartment. Or family guy sitting his kids on the wing of a neighbors L-39 for pictures.
I always try to be nice, thats the way everyone has been to me. I do get tight at Rude and very Bold people though. Some folks just aren't polite, at all. I can see why some guys get tight about strangers around their airplanes.
I'm a newbie at airshow participation. What gets me mad, the older cats (plane owners) take in stride. I try to take my cue from them and be unfailingly polite. No amount of rude people will dampen those weekends anyway. Blue wristband baby. It's beautiful, and it carries responsibility.
As far as selling stuff, I know I got a thin skin. I don't think I could do that for a living. In response to a query on another forum, and due to a rapidly changing personal situation, I responded to a question about projects. I said I'd sell mine. It's entry level, hence the very low price. I know that a couple of the parts are worth the entire price of the project. I'm not totally retarded. I said that the project had to go in it's entirety, I will not part it out. My friends think I'm crazy and that I should just part it out, it's worth more that way. I explain to them that I am not in the parts business, or the parts storage business. Besides me being lazy, A couple people took a few years putting this project together, it was a good deal to me, and it will be a good inexpensive start for someone else in a better situation than me.
I said I'd sell it, gave the price, which was noted as being very, even extremely flexible, and the fact that I wouldn't part it out. Almost everyone who inquired was cool, even the part out guys. When I explained it wasn't going to happen they were cool with it. There were a couple three cats that proceded to string me along for three plus weeks though, wanting the one part. When they finally realized that it wasn't going to get parted out, they proceded to denigrate the project, and tell me I'm a dips**t in a thousand words or more.
I get the Tire Kicker thing now. On the selling side anyway. I see beautiful things on places like barnstormers with the "no tire kickers" and having no price, and I can't bring myself to ask them, because I would be tire kicking. Like I said, I got a thin skin for that kinda stuff, and I know what its like.
I'm over the "I'd rather see it be Coors Light cans than sell any piece of it to that as****e" stage. It's gotta be gone soon, either sold or donated, but I'd rather take a bath on it, than see any of it go to any of those cats.
Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:35 pm
A couple of years ago a guy was advertising a YL-15 for sale in Alaska in Trade-A-Plane. He wanted mail letters only..no calls or emails.
I wrote a very nice, polite letter saying if the price was right, I 'd seriously consider buying it because it was so rare/neat.
I never heard from him.
It ticked me off after going to the trouble or writing a letter.
O.P. I get the same stuff when I have my antique car at a show. Some parents think nothing of putting their little darlings into the seats (it's a doorless pre-WWI roadster) or on the running board...to say nothing of squeezing the hold bulb or playing with dash switches or the motometer.
I even had some teenagers unscrewing the large brass tire stem covers...why? "Because they look neat...they look like rife cartridges..."
I wrote a very nice, polite letter saying if the price was right, I 'd seriously consider buying it because it was so rare/neat.
I never heard from him.
It ticked me off after going to the trouble or writing a letter.
O.P. I get the same stuff when I have my antique car at a show. Some parents think nothing of putting their little darlings into the seats (it's a doorless pre-WWI roadster) or on the running board...to say nothing of squeezing the hold bulb or playing with dash switches or the motometer.
I even had some teenagers unscrewing the large brass tire stem covers...why? "Because they look neat...they look like rife cartridges..."
Re: No tire kickers
Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:11 pm
WHat's more, I don't think it even works! The true tire kicker/time wasters wouldn't be dissuaded by that statement. Some of them have turned tire kicking into a past time.Tulio wrote:For pure, basic, atavistic reasons, the term "No tire kickers" [or, no time wasters] when associated with an aviation ad, gets my blood boiling.
Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:11 pm
Mr. Patterson:
May I, sir, respectfully suggest that you carefully read the first line of my posting, and more so, this part?
"when associated with an aviation ad" ???
You are mixing up different situations, and my visit to Ezell had absolutely nothing to do at all, with my posting.
" The point I'm making here is that just because it's warbird aviation and you're passionate about it, doesn't mean that you should be allowed to have open access to every project or plane on the market."
At no time at all, sir, have I stated that I have to have access to any project or airplane.
I politely ask, and when granted permission, I go in and look, and ask questions. When I am denied acces, I will thank them, and keep moving.
Tulio
May I, sir, respectfully suggest that you carefully read the first line of my posting, and more so, this part?
"when associated with an aviation ad" ???
You are mixing up different situations, and my visit to Ezell had absolutely nothing to do at all, with my posting.
" The point I'm making here is that just because it's warbird aviation and you're passionate about it, doesn't mean that you should be allowed to have open access to every project or plane on the market."
At no time at all, sir, have I stated that I have to have access to any project or airplane.
I politely ask, and when granted permission, I go in and look, and ask questions. When I am denied acces, I will thank them, and keep moving.
Tulio
Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:06 pm
Tulio wrote:May I, sir, respectfully suggest that you carefully read the first line of my posting, and more so, this part?
"when associated with an aviation ad" ???
You are mixing up different situations, and my visit to Ezell had absolutely nothing to do at all, with my posting.
Hi Tulio,
Sorry for the late reply, but I'm just back from China (again). The point that I was making was that there really is no difference between a "tire kicker" and someone showing up at a restoration shop to "just look around". Both the seller of an airplane and a restoration shop are trying to make money from aviation. If a seller asks for "no tire kickers" or a restoration shop post a sign that says "no visitors" it basically amounts to the same thing.
Now, I think most people will agree with me that this attitude is not common in warbirds (as your own numerous posts covering everything aviation from coast to coast would confirm). Most of the time warbird owners, restoration shops, and others associated with warbirds go out of their way to answer questions and allow access to the toys.
Your original post, in my opinion, suggested that this open and helpful attitude was on the decline in warbirds, especially concerning young people. I firmly believe that this is not true.
In fact, I'm really surprised at the amount of access that is granted to people not directly involved with restoring, maintaining or flying warbirds, considering that every action we make is reported, dissected, and then judged on the internet. How would you feel if your sport or hobby included a built in group of enthusiasts who published in a public forum your every movement, sale, recovery, restoration, flight, accident, incident or paint job?
Steve
Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:13 pm
Personally I think this has always gone on, just not as publicly. I remember many a time sitting at Chino after hours with my friends looking through warbird magazines and commenting on rumors of a certain pilot's skills, the "wrong" color on someone's warbird, and what an idiot so and so was and how I saw all the rivets inside his tailcone that were nailed over. Only now I discuss the same things with people all over the US and in fact all over the world. If anything, at least "you people" know what is being said about you. I had a certain (busy/not too internet saavy) collector once ask me to e-mail him internet comments I saw about his restoration because he was interested in what others thought about his plane. I do know that many well known warbird folks visit this site frequently but do not post. Maybe they are in fact interested in public opinion?srpatterson wrote:...considering that every action we make is reported, dissected, and then judged on the internet. How would you feel if your sport or hobby included a built in group of enthusiasts who published in a public forum your every movement, sale, recovery, restoration, flight, accident, incident or paint job?
I do know that a lot of hell has been raised on this site and others on controversial topics that make some of the more well-known folks uncomfortable about posting. I'm sorry that is the case since I think all of us want essentially the same thing. I have been on (non-aviation) forums that were heavily censored and very cliqueish, with moderators editing posts that didn't meet some very specific standards. That works for some, but I prefer a site with more flexibility.
I was one of the enthusiasts you describe before I ever owned a plane, grading landings at the local airport with all the other kids. I suspect that you were too only you forgot...
I don't know about your airport, but mine is fenced in and all the gates are locked. I don't see kids on bikes like I used to. Not like the local general avaition field where I grew up in Illinois (Chicagoland Airport, RIP).
Hope you had fun in China. The food is great, the public toilets aren't!
Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:03 pm
This is for sure, a case where I have failed to express my real intentions and meaning. My original posting was an intent to convey my worries about the future of aviation, the children and the young, not having the same access to airports, but more importantly, to people and airplanes, to ask questions, so that their imaginations get flying long before they actually learn to fly.
I know well enough that 9/11 changed everything, and so we must adapt. But my real -honest- feel is for the youngsters, those who do not have a relative or an acquaintance who owns and airplane and so, if they have an interest in aviation, and happen to meet with one of those "no tire kickers" frame of mind people, would be put off and probably would lose interest.
I fully understand the business side of things, but I also believe that seeing only dollar signs on things, discourages people who have a passion for the field, and more so if they are young, if we only see in them a nuissance, an interruption, a dollar not earned.
As for me, well, I like airplanes, that much is obvious. But besides this, I have pride, and I ask -respectfully for sure- for access to an airplane or to a person. If the permission is not granted, that's it for me. I will not beg, I will not throw a tantrum, simply I will thank the person, and then keep going; not being granted access is not the end of the world for me.
I appreciate you guys comments on this thread, and I for one, will continue to take the time to ask, share and communicate, with those who have the same interest and passion for things aeronautical.
Saludos,
Tulio
I know well enough that 9/11 changed everything, and so we must adapt. But my real -honest- feel is for the youngsters, those who do not have a relative or an acquaintance who owns and airplane and so, if they have an interest in aviation, and happen to meet with one of those "no tire kickers" frame of mind people, would be put off and probably would lose interest.
I fully understand the business side of things, but I also believe that seeing only dollar signs on things, discourages people who have a passion for the field, and more so if they are young, if we only see in them a nuissance, an interruption, a dollar not earned.
As for me, well, I like airplanes, that much is obvious. But besides this, I have pride, and I ask -respectfully for sure- for access to an airplane or to a person. If the permission is not granted, that's it for me. I will not beg, I will not throw a tantrum, simply I will thank the person, and then keep going; not being granted access is not the end of the world for me.
I appreciate you guys comments on this thread, and I for one, will continue to take the time to ask, share and communicate, with those who have the same interest and passion for things aeronautical.
Saludos,
Tulio