Postwar Mustangs
Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:34 pm
Could someone give a good summary of the postwar Cavalier conversions? I've heard so much about them over the years, but information is sometimes confusing and distinctions are not usually made. For example, I just today realized that there were four PA-48s, not two.
S̶p̶e̶c̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶u̶i̶l̶t̶/̶c̶o̶n̶v̶e̶r̶t̶e̶d̶?̶ ̶A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶h̶i̶p̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶w̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶d̶e̶l̶s̶?̶ ̶F̶o̶r̶ ̶e̶x̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶w̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶C̶a̶v̶a̶l̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶7̶5̶0̶,̶ ̶1̶2̶0̶0̶,̶ ̶1̶5̶0̶0̶,̶ ̶2̶0̶0̶0̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶2̶5̶0̶0̶ ̶v̶a̶r̶i̶a̶n̶t̶s̶?̶(̶A̶p̶p̶a̶r̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶u̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶d̶i̶c̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶a̶n̶g̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶m̶o̶d̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶c̶h̶i̶e̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶r̶a̶n̶g̶e̶?̶)̶ ̶H̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶"̶M̶u̶s̶t̶a̶n̶g̶ ̶I̶I̶"̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶T̶F̶-̶5̶1̶.̶ ̶F̶o̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶t̶a̶n̶c̶e̶,̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶C̶a̶v̶a̶l̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶7̶5̶0̶,̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶a̶ ̶T̶F̶-̶5̶1̶?̶ (Nevermind, found a good source.)
Furthermore, the TF-51 designation has always confused me. It gets applied so willy-nilly, it seems basically to any twin-seat Mustang, that I'm curious what it actually, correctly applies to. Did the military ever use it (I know there were F-51s, but TF-51s?), or was it only a civilian designation? Also, reading through the page on Cavalier on MustangsMustangs made me realize that since "Trans-Florida was renamed Cavalier Aircraft Corporation", is it possible that the TF in TF-51 had nothing to do with military, role-based designations, but was simply just an abbreviation of the Trans-Florida name?
S̶p̶e̶c̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶u̶i̶l̶t̶/̶c̶o̶n̶v̶e̶r̶t̶e̶d̶?̶ ̶A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶h̶i̶p̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶w̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶d̶e̶l̶s̶?̶ ̶F̶o̶r̶ ̶e̶x̶a̶m̶p̶l̶e̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶w̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶C̶a̶v̶a̶l̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶7̶5̶0̶,̶ ̶1̶2̶0̶0̶,̶ ̶1̶5̶0̶0̶,̶ ̶2̶0̶0̶0̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶2̶5̶0̶0̶ ̶v̶a̶r̶i̶a̶n̶t̶s̶?̶(̶A̶p̶p̶a̶r̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶u̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶d̶i̶c̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶a̶n̶g̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶m̶o̶d̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶c̶h̶i̶e̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶r̶a̶n̶g̶e̶?̶)̶ ̶H̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶"̶M̶u̶s̶t̶a̶n̶g̶ ̶I̶I̶"̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶T̶F̶-̶5̶1̶.̶ ̶F̶o̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶t̶a̶n̶c̶e̶,̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶C̶a̶v̶a̶l̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶7̶5̶0̶,̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶a̶ ̶T̶F̶-̶5̶1̶?̶ (Nevermind, found a good source.)
Furthermore, the TF-51 designation has always confused me. It gets applied so willy-nilly, it seems basically to any twin-seat Mustang, that I'm curious what it actually, correctly applies to. Did the military ever use it (I know there were F-51s, but TF-51s?), or was it only a civilian designation? Also, reading through the page on Cavalier on MustangsMustangs made me realize that since "Trans-Florida was renamed Cavalier Aircraft Corporation", is it possible that the TF in TF-51 had nothing to do with military, role-based designations, but was simply just an abbreviation of the Trans-Florida name?
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:54 am
Noha307 wrote:Furthermore, the TF-51 designation has always confused me. It gets applied so willy-nilly, it seems basically to any twin-seat Mustang, that I'm curious what it actually, correctly applies to. Did the military ever use it (I know there were F-51s, but TF-51s?), or was it only a civilian designation? Also, reading through the page on Cavalier on MustangsMustangs made me realize that since "Trans-Florida was renamed Cavalier Aircraft Corporation", is it possible that the TF in TF-51 had nothing to do with military, role-based designations, but was simply just an abbreviation of the Trans-Florida name?
I may have oversimplified my understanding over the years but....Not merely 2-seat, but dual control. Training Fighter-51D, TF-51D. The F was a result of the 1948 change in designation from pursuit to fighter. A 2-seat without the controls for the GIB was just an F-51D with a second seat in it for an observer/passenger or a converted P/F-51(whatever)squadron hack . I dunno how many the USAF had dual control F-51D's and of F-6D models, but there were a few. Cavalier exported a few to overseas military. I didn't know folks ever referred to 2-seat -51's as TF's. I always thought TF-51 was reserved solely for dual control birds.
EDIT
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:31 am
IIRC a number (all?) of the USAF TF-51D trainers were converted by TEMCO. All had a dedicated TF canopy with a very pronounced raised profile at the rear. "Miss Velma" in the UK is one such, though I'm not sure if the canopy is a remnant from TEMCO conversion or a later fit.
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:56 am
North American converted 10 late Dallas-produced P-51D's into "TP-51D's", with a second seat, dual controls and a second set of instruments all installed inside a stock D-model fuselage. Outwardly, the only difference was that the plexiglass canopy bubble was taller. Those still in service after the formation of the USAF in 1947 became known as TF-51D's.
The vast majority of P-51D's flying today have two seats, contained within a stock fuselage/canopy, where a jump seat has been installed where the fuselage tank and radio/battery were originally located. The vast consensus is that these remain called P-51D's. A number of these do have basic controls for the back seat position (in large part due to a conversion kit devised by Ezell Aviation years ago), but generally you don't know which ones these are, outwardly, unless of course you look into the rear cockpit. The restored Mustang "Daddy's Girl" is a stock D-model airframe with dual controls for the backseat passenger (rudder pedals, stick, throttle & prop controls, and MP, RPM, airpseed & altimeter instruments), but together with the taller plexiglass bubble canopy it has, reminiscent of the original North American Aviation dual-seat examples, it has often been referred to as a TP-51D.
It was TEMCO that came up with the modified fuselage with the extended cockpit and canopy frame, with 15 modified/produced as "TF-51D's", between 1951 and 1952 - this being the design/modification which is what is now synonymous with the term "TF-51D". The Cavalier conversions didn't come about for military use until much later, in the late 60's. All of the Cavalier conversions I know of were two-seaters, but only three were modified like the TEMCO TF-51D examples, with the extended cockpit/canopy setup and dual controls. The later Cavalier conversions adopted the use of the NACA extended tail fin cap on most, which the TEMCO examples never had.
Today, the only original TEMCO TF-51D flying is the Collings Foundation "Toulouse Nuts". The Friedkin TF-51D "Bum Steer" is the only original Cavalier "TF-51D" type conversion flying. All of the other "TF-51D's" flying today (i.e. - extended cockpit/canopy) are conversions that have been done since the 80's to original stock fuselages or new fuselages created from scratch.
The main point to take away from this is...
What was a P-51D in 1947 was called an F-51D by 1948 - no changes to the airframe required for the name change.
What was a TP-51D in 1947 (and there were several) was called a TF-51D by 1948 - no changes to the airframe required for the name change.
TEMCO was the first after NAA to be contracted to produce trainer versions of the Mustang for the USAF, around 1950, and these were called TF-51D's just like the original NAA-produced TF-51D's already in service (although the TEMCO conversions were more extensive with the extended cockpits).
Trans-Florida/Cavalier, coming much later, produced various civilian and military conversions, of which only three examples (that I know of) produced were along the same lines as the original TEMCO-type TF-51D.
The vast majority of P-51D's flying today have two seats, contained within a stock fuselage/canopy, where a jump seat has been installed where the fuselage tank and radio/battery were originally located. The vast consensus is that these remain called P-51D's. A number of these do have basic controls for the back seat position (in large part due to a conversion kit devised by Ezell Aviation years ago), but generally you don't know which ones these are, outwardly, unless of course you look into the rear cockpit. The restored Mustang "Daddy's Girl" is a stock D-model airframe with dual controls for the backseat passenger (rudder pedals, stick, throttle & prop controls, and MP, RPM, airpseed & altimeter instruments), but together with the taller plexiglass bubble canopy it has, reminiscent of the original North American Aviation dual-seat examples, it has often been referred to as a TP-51D.
It was TEMCO that came up with the modified fuselage with the extended cockpit and canopy frame, with 15 modified/produced as "TF-51D's", between 1951 and 1952 - this being the design/modification which is what is now synonymous with the term "TF-51D". The Cavalier conversions didn't come about for military use until much later, in the late 60's. All of the Cavalier conversions I know of were two-seaters, but only three were modified like the TEMCO TF-51D examples, with the extended cockpit/canopy setup and dual controls. The later Cavalier conversions adopted the use of the NACA extended tail fin cap on most, which the TEMCO examples never had.
Today, the only original TEMCO TF-51D flying is the Collings Foundation "Toulouse Nuts". The Friedkin TF-51D "Bum Steer" is the only original Cavalier "TF-51D" type conversion flying. All of the other "TF-51D's" flying today (i.e. - extended cockpit/canopy) are conversions that have been done since the 80's to original stock fuselages or new fuselages created from scratch.
The main point to take away from this is...
What was a P-51D in 1947 was called an F-51D by 1948 - no changes to the airframe required for the name change.
What was a TP-51D in 1947 (and there were several) was called a TF-51D by 1948 - no changes to the airframe required for the name change.
TEMCO was the first after NAA to be contracted to produce trainer versions of the Mustang for the USAF, around 1950, and these were called TF-51D's just like the original NAA-produced TF-51D's already in service (although the TEMCO conversions were more extensive with the extended cockpits).
Trans-Florida/Cavalier, coming much later, produced various civilian and military conversions, of which only three examples (that I know of) produced were along the same lines as the original TEMCO-type TF-51D.
Last edited by JohnTerrell on Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:15 am, edited 11 times in total.
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:11 pm
quemerford wrote:"Miss Velma" in the UK is one such, though I'm not sure if the canopy is a remnant from TEMCO conversion or a later fit.
"Miss Velma" is one of those which the airframe you see today began as a scratch-built "parts plane" beginning in the late 90's. The wing was built new by Odegaard Aviation and the fuselage/cockpit was built-up by Square One in the early 2000's to TF-51D standard (Square One of course was responsible for a number of TF conversions, using Temco and Cavalier type plan-work/modifications). The rest of the airframe came together into a completed aircraft at Fighter Rebuilders from 2005-2007 with help/efforts of a few other shops as well.
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:12 pm
"Galveston Gal", 44-73458 was converted to TF by the FAS when it was in El Salvador - with help from Trans-Florida.
The wreckage was later rebuilt as a TF by Gordon Plaskett, who had bought out the remainder of the Cavalier spares.
The wreckage was later rebuilt as a TF by Gordon Plaskett, who had bought out the remainder of the Cavalier spares.
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:35 pm
I typed in TP-51D & TF-51D over on Aviation Archeology and got these lists. Not sure how accurate these lists are concerning the true "TF & TP's" mentioned above. Perhaps any aircraft used in Training was preceded with a "T"?
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/default.htm
TP-51D
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... Submit3=Go
TF-51D (There are two listings for an ETF-51D, whatever that is.)
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... o&offset=0
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/default.htm
TP-51D
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... Submit3=Go
TF-51D (There are two listings for an ETF-51D, whatever that is.)
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/ ... o&offset=0
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:56 pm
As you say, I think a lot of those were only called TP-51D's/TF-51D's because of their training assignment - for instance, photos of a couple of those listed as TF-51D's clearly show them as single-seaters, still with their armor plate/head rest and radios in back - just as there were single-seat/unmodified "TP-51H's/TF-51H's" used in a trainer role.
The original 10 North American Aviation produced dual control TP-51D's (later re-designated TF-51D's) that I know of were all Dallas-produced P-51D-25-NT's with the serials: 44-84610, 44-84611, and 45-11443 through 45-11450. It so happens that all of the TEMCO-modified TF-51D's were also Dallas-produced P-51D-25-NT's as well, which had been in storage prior to TEMCO conducting the modification work - those being 44-84654 through 44-84658, 44-84660, 44-84662, 44-84663, 44-84665 through 44-84670, and 44-84676.
"ETF-51D" referred to the "Exempt/Trainer" NACA-modified P-51D's/F-51D's (one of those listed being the same Mustang that was used for the carrier trials by the Navy in November 1944, prior to it going to NACA and becoming NACA 102).
Here is a scanned photo I've had in my files for quite some time, showing a close-up of one of the original 1945-era North American Aviation dual control TP-51D's (later re-designated TF-51D by 1948). Obviously it was a very cramped situation in the back, with a full instrument panel and a set of controls. Even though the whole canopy departs the aircraft when the emergency handle is pulled, I read one report by a USAF pilot that trained in one of these original NAA TF-51D's, where it was enforced that due to the cramped quarters of the back seat position, if there was an issue with the plane, all attempt would have to be made to make a forced landing rather than try and bail out of the aircraft.
The original 10 North American Aviation produced dual control TP-51D's (later re-designated TF-51D's) that I know of were all Dallas-produced P-51D-25-NT's with the serials: 44-84610, 44-84611, and 45-11443 through 45-11450. It so happens that all of the TEMCO-modified TF-51D's were also Dallas-produced P-51D-25-NT's as well, which had been in storage prior to TEMCO conducting the modification work - those being 44-84654 through 44-84658, 44-84660, 44-84662, 44-84663, 44-84665 through 44-84670, and 44-84676.
"ETF-51D" referred to the "Exempt/Trainer" NACA-modified P-51D's/F-51D's (one of those listed being the same Mustang that was used for the carrier trials by the Navy in November 1944, prior to it going to NACA and becoming NACA 102).
Here is a scanned photo I've had in my files for quite some time, showing a close-up of one of the original 1945-era North American Aviation dual control TP-51D's (later re-designated TF-51D by 1948). Obviously it was a very cramped situation in the back, with a full instrument panel and a set of controls. Even though the whole canopy departs the aircraft when the emergency handle is pulled, I read one report by a USAF pilot that trained in one of these original NAA TF-51D's, where it was enforced that due to the cramped quarters of the back seat position, if there was an issue with the plane, all attempt would have to be made to make a forced landing rather than try and bail out of the aircraft.
Last edited by JohnTerrell on Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:04 pm
Due to dental work my brain ain't working today (not that you can really tell). How does GIB get in/out?
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:22 pm
I'll try and dig out an actual description by someone who knows more about these, but just going by memory, I think it was a folding matter, like the front seats in most of the two-seat P-51D's today, where the pilot's seat tilts forward to the floor after being unlocked at the top. It would appear, just by this photo, that the rear instrument panel was mounted to the pilot's seat assembly (note the struts connecting the rear instrument panel to shock mounts).
Of course the TEMCO "TF-51D's" solved this issue of lack of room in back, by expanding/extending the length of the cockpit section, moving the rear pilot's seat farther back and providing a longer canopy as a result. A few later Cavalier Mustangs copied/re-used the TEMCO conversions. There were originally 15 Temco TF-51D's, and perhaps as many as 3 Cavalier TF-51D's - today there are 16 TF-51D's flying (including "Miss V" now undergoing repairs), but only two of these are original government-contract TF's, the rest were all created since the 80's. I can think of at least 4 more TF-51D's being built to fly at this time. (This description/numbers doesn't include the maintained-to-airworthy but static TF-51D "The Friendly Ghost", which has a combination TEMCO/Cavalier history.)
Of course the TEMCO "TF-51D's" solved this issue of lack of room in back, by expanding/extending the length of the cockpit section, moving the rear pilot's seat farther back and providing a longer canopy as a result. A few later Cavalier Mustangs copied/re-used the TEMCO conversions. There were originally 15 Temco TF-51D's, and perhaps as many as 3 Cavalier TF-51D's - today there are 16 TF-51D's flying (including "Miss V" now undergoing repairs), but only two of these are original government-contract TF's, the rest were all created since the 80's. I can think of at least 4 more TF-51D's being built to fly at this time. (This description/numbers doesn't include the maintained-to-airworthy but static TF-51D "The Friendly Ghost", which has a combination TEMCO/Cavalier history.)
Last edited by JohnTerrell on Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:17 am
Do you guys know if anyone downunder in Oz or NZ performed any Mustang dual conversions? While we're on it...Britain?
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:30 am
With regard to dual control Mustangs, I've never heard/seen any such modifications in any original in-service RAAF, RNZAF or RAF Mustangs. Even as it was, the total number of dual control Mustangs built for the USAAF/USAF was quite small, with only 25 in all when combining the original NAA and the TEMCO conversions (as mentioned earlier, adding to the confusion, there were a great number more than this also called "TP-51D's" and "TP-51H's"/"TF-51D's" and "TF-51H's", but they weren't dual control nor even two-seaters - simply stock examples renamed due to being relegated to training duties). The dual control examples were rotated through various State-side units in the early 50's due to their low number. Six of the TEMCO TF-51D's ended up going to the Republic of Korea Air Force (ROKAF) in 1954 - one original example, likely to be 44-84669, still remains on static display in South Korea.
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:10 pm
Thanks John. That was the bonus answer, but I should have said post-military dual conversion. I have in mind something reported in a warbird magazine from the 90's I read about a Mustang going to Oz which would be converted to a TF...IIRC. 'Course it could've been wrong...Or the conversion would be done here in the U.S. etc. The way it was worded tho, one came away with the implication the work would be done there.
Re: Postwar Mustangs
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:21 pm
Rod Lewis' "La Pistolera", originally a CAC-manufactured RAAF Mustang that spent much of its life in Australia, was imported from Australia into the US around the mid-90's, and was soon sold to Frank Borman in 1995. It was immediately sent to Square One and rebuilt as a TF-51D. (The rebuild supposedly used some parts of 44-74859, and that is the airframe identity it has been registered to/as since.) This is the closest to what you describe that I know of pertaining to TF's and Australian-related Mustangs.