Warbird Information Exchange

Rob,

I voted "Yes". Not sure why anyone would vote against it. I know the last time you didn't have much luck getting the CAF involved. What about POF & other museums, did you get any response from them?

Mac

Somebody want to 'splain this to me?

Mudge the ignorant

Rob,

No offense, but you are not qualified to meet with the US Navy concerning warbird recovery or ownership. No doubt you feel strongly about this subject and have strong opinions, but the warbird community should be represented by individuals and organizations with germain interests in current and ongoing restoration projects. Paul Allen, Steven Grey, Steve Hinton, yes;...Rob Rohr, no.

No offense, but you can only do harm. Please don't try to represent us.

Steve Patterson
Hawker Sea Fury "Southern Cross"
Race 71

I second that motion!!

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Brad

I agree with those who feel it would not be in anyone's best interest for you to pursue this meeting. The likelyhood of you representing a group of potential future warbird recovery and/or restoration endeavors, successfully, is very remote. Simply having an interest in the subject and a "jailhouse lawyers" understanding of the subject, doesn't mean you will be taken seriously. I see this no differently than any interested citizen of the United States deciding that they should contact some legally enity or country to represent "all" U.S. Archealogical interests for the U.S. That would be as laughable as this. The "concerned citizen" would obviously have no standing and therefore no chance of success.

If you want to engage in a more worthwhile pursuit, why not make a list of the current "interested factions" (POF,CAF,Grey,whoever) and contact them all and attempt to bring them together for a summit. If you can accomplish that, then you can get them all to agree, who should be hired to represent their collective interests. This will probably be someone who has a legal and/or political/lobbyist background and who can also spell. Once you have these simpler steps accomplished, then you can think about making Naval contact.

Nobody said this will be easy.

Best of luck!

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

Although I agree with Steve/Brad/Eric. I don't necessary think the big $$$
needs to be the spearhead here to get the respect needed. Some ordinary guy who understands the whole process and has experienced the ins and outs of the whole ballgame is the right choice. Maybe someone who has the respect of and has dealt with a major military museum alongs with having done the recovery and a great restoration of a rare warbird. Maybe someone like Mr Helldiver AKA Mike Rawson??!!
Rob, I think you a good guy and properly modivated but presentation and first impressions are everything and you may have burned to many bridges along the may. To answer Mudge, I voted no but only for the need of the right spokesman.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Jack...I voted no for the same reason. All due respect Col. Rohr, But I don't believe you are in any way qualified to represent the "Warbird Community". If you want to know why, send me a PM and I'll tell you. If you'd rather I do on the forum, I'll oblige you. Were I you, I'd choose the former method of contact.

Mudge the harsh

I don't have a bone to pick with anyone or have an opinion one way or another. However, I would like to know what Rohr's qualifications are to be a representative of the warbird community regarding recovery/restoration of aircraft. What is this meeting with the Navy suppose to accomplish? Will it set any precidents? Etc?

Why are we coming down so hard on one who wants to help get the Navy off their collective backside before these aircraft are lost forever? "look there, that pile of corroded aluminim used to be the very last Devastator"

Did you forget that a"little guy" just recovered a Brewster Corsair? What if he had given up? A one of a kind aircraft would still be rotting away into swamp. Was he a representaive of the Warbird movement? I think he was. Was he a big name big $$$ guy, Nope.

We all do our part to keep them in the air or restored on the ground. Anyone who takes their time and money to help in any way gets a thanks from me. We should try to be as coordinated as we can for as Franklin said " We must hang together, or we shall surely hang separately.

It would be nice if he could spell...

There is a right way and a wrong way to handle this issue. The US Navy has worked with other groups and individuals in the past to both recover and transfer title to historic warbirds. In fact there is a Wildcat here in the Kansas City area that is now flown on the airshow circuit that was recovered from Lake Michigan, with the cooperation of the Navy. In the past when the US Navy has been presented with a “win/win” plan they have been very receptive to negotiate.

However, saying that I have to stress that having a meeting in Pensacola just to tell officials from the NHC how stupid they are, while reciting chapter and verse from the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 isn’t going to help. The US Navy know how valuable these aircraft are, and they are not about to just turn over their rights to them.

Again, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about this. Having the wrong guy go "Waco" with the US Navy could just kill whatever chance these aircraft have of being recovered and restored.

This makes me wonder where Doug Champlin went wrong. You would think that he has both the means and the tact to pull something like this off.

to clarify a few points ......

1. In the group of potential warbird recovery/restoration/owners anyone who owns 0-5 warbirds probably are the "little guys". There are some really huge operators in this "business". Myself (3) and Steve Patterson (4) are both "little guys."

2. I don't think this is at all an issue of big $$$ or small $$$ guys.

3. I think WIX is a very valuable tool/organization.

4. I think the best anyone (regardless of size) can hope for from the Navy is a change in policy on a case by case basis. If someone (anyone) has a specific recovery in mind , with a viable execution plan (what's in it for the Navy,...recruiting/retention/a trade), and PROPER FINANCING, they should be the one to approach the Navy to work out a compromise. Otherwise, I'm not sure what exactly one would be requesting....a blanket statement that the Navy now realizes the policy was wrong and from now on anyone can keep whatever they can recover? Never going to happen. I'm certainly no expert, but i have to think it's only going to change a little at a time, on a case by case basis, through repeated presentations, if at all.

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

Eric....excellent points. Thanks

Mudge the logical

Sounds to me like very few want Rob (or anyone else) to represent them or the "warbird community" as a whole. That sounds fair enough. I'm not always happy with the way the EAA handles things either sometimes. As long as someone represents only themselves and doesn't ruin it for others, I say go for it! A few well placed success stories could only help.

Below are my responses to Rob Rohr's latest post. My statements are in bold italics. SRP

Ok I'm going to respound to this one post.
Alright kids, buckle up ‘cause it going to get bumpy…

First Steve go read what I put up on the Spelling thread.
OK, I read it. You have dyslexia. So did Albert Einstein, Gen. George Patton, Thomas Edison, Winston Churchill, Benjamin Franklin and John F. Kennedy. You also have something else in common with the above mentioned gentlemen, namely that none of you has ever used a word processor.

Next the Wildcats, do you know the story behind the recoverys and when and how they were done? I'm guessing not so the short version A&T got permission from Pensacola to do the Lake Mich. recoverys not from NHC at the time they were doing the recoverys NHC had no say. It was NHC who stop the Recoverys and change the Navy police to what it is today.
Thanks for clarifying that, Rob. I have no idea what you said, but thanks all the same.

As for nowing NHP Act. and Title 14 well Steve answer me this then becuase the folks at NHC would expect someone to know the ends and out of these documents so the question is under what part of the NHP Act. does aircraft recovery fall under and in Title 14 what section describe how one can do a recovery of an aircraft. I know the section and how to fill out the paperwork and I've talked with the folks at NHC and Pensacola on the right and wrong ways and how to not make the paperwork mistacks.
I believe you when you say you know how to “not make the paperwork mistacks (sic)”. I believe that you truly believe this.

As for the Navy turning over the right well it might suprise alot of you out there but the new Admril is talking just about doing this on a limited area's. Once again I know about this because I've been talking to the folks in Washington.
I’m sure that you have your finger on the pulse of the “folks” in Washington. Say “hello” to the Admiral for me, and ask him if I can have an aircraft carrier. I’m sure they’ve got an extra one or two just lying around.

As for me going"Waco" please have you ever sat down and watch me speak or negotate huh?????
You called me once for an hour long conversation. Well, not really a conversation as you did all the talking. I seem to recall trying to negotiate to get off the line. Also, I recall several conspiracy theories that you brought up. Now, I’m not much for conspiracy theories, but they do make for good fiction.

Looks folks I was ask by them not me going to them I have my own ideas and thought on how things should be done.
Not really sure what you’re saying there, but OK.

As for asking Steve Hinton its already been done and was told maybe latter if we get anything going. Maybe Steve and the rest of you should talk with Mike rawson on what we were working on and what some of the items that we want to talk about.

Its funny you guys bitch about the Navay policey but when someone who you feel doesn't fit your idea of the spokesperson none of you strep up and ask to jump in he11 I'll doing the introducton and give anyone all my notes and help with the HNP Act and Title 14 knowledge.
Rob, you act as if you’re the only person on the planet who has any knowledge of the National Historic Preservation Act. Also, do you realize that “Title 14”( as you keep referring to the Defense Department Budget for 2005) has only eight pages that deal with the issue at hand. I think most any lawyer can handle eight pages (which, I have read, by the way). Go past those eight pages and you’re dealing with additional funding required for “Operation Iraqi Freedom”.

Anyway say what you guys want either way at this point I'm going to work on a project that I and two other Wixers have been working on with NHC but I will say this, this is a chance slipping away very fast with reguards to the recovery and preservation of alot of these aircraft. Something to think about.
That’s all I ask, namely that you do whatever you like as Mr. Rob Rohr, private citizen, but please don’t try to represent others without a specific mandate, which I don’t feel you have earned or deserve. If you want a mandate, then I suggest you form your own organization and ask for members and donations.

I’m really not trying to pick on Rob Rohr (well OK, just a little), but I am trying to demonstrate that this is a very serious issue, and that Rob is not remotely qualified to negotiate a remedy with the United States, or her Navy. At the same time I would like to say that I am not qualified either (although not for the reasons that Rob thinks). We have a lobby organization in Washington, namely the EAA and Warbirds of America. They are taken seriously, and represent thousands of members. Now, Rob may not agree with EAA’s handling of this issue, which is where we agree to disagree. Again, I encourage Rob to form his “own” EAA if he thinks he can do it better. My application, Rob, will not be in the mail.