B-24J Witchcraft Incident at Love Field, Dallas - 4/5/18

[marine air]

When I was a kid and talked to many veterans, they often said the B-24 was more difficult to fly than the B-17. It was more demanding and harder to land. One veteran chuckled and said he had seen one on a landing attempt bounce as high as a hangar. (Maybe he was that guy.) The B-24's were slapped together and pushed out the door and the quality of construction wasn't as good as most of the B-17's. At this time no doubt all of the hydraulic hoses and fuel lines have long since been replaced on the last two flying B-24's.
The two B-24's should continue to be flown. Unlike the Consolidated PBY, the B-24 has a fantastic safety record in civilian service. This speaks well to the training, the quality of crews and maintenance and how the aircraft are operated. THe Privateer has faired not so well due to their use for decades as fire bombers which resulted in several losses.
The B-24A and B-24J should continue to be flown and earn revenue for their museums. They are both unique and important in their own way. If it wasn't for the CAF flying theirs for the last 50 years, the type might have slipped from the public's conscious and there simply wouldn't be a market for the B-24 in the airshow business. Don't laugh, it has happened to the C-46, Privateer, P-63, Lockheed Hudson, Martin B-26 , A-20 Havoc, and many others.
Kermit will never fly his B-24J or have it restored. Mr Weeks is a very practical , mildly eccentric guy who works and cooperates with many museums and owners. He loves that B-24J as the relic it is. All the paint inside is original, all the skins, it has a beautiful patina and may be the most original B-24 in existence. IF he wants to get his B-24 type rating recurrent he can make a deal with the operators of the two flyers and go through their training. He scratches that itch and they get a much appreciated cash infusion. YOu guys forget he has many other just as rare or one of a kind aircraft to restore at this time.
I hope he puts the five million bucks towards his Sikorsky V-43, the Seversky P-35, his dauntless, Sunderland, and a few others.

Last edited by marine air on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

[marine air]

deleted

[OD/NG]

Just my opinion only, but I don't think we will see any of the large heavy aircraft that Weeks owns fly under his ownership. This includes the B-17, B-24, B-29, Lancaster, Connie and Sunderland. I would also throw in the B-23, B-26 and A-20. These are super expensive restorations that require, literally, many 10's of millions of dollars to restore and/or bring back to airworthy. Based on Kermit's blog, facebook and youtube videos, one can surmise that he doesn't have a lot of money - well, at least disposable money - to use on restorations. Yes, he's a "multi-millionaire" on paper and has many, many assets, but I don't believe he has that much money to use on aircraft restorations.

This is evidenced by the way he does his restorations. Most of them are done "in-house". The few that aren't are normally multi-decade projects. As an example, how long has that A-26 been sitting at Aero Trader - 25 to 30 years? How long has the P-51A been at Art Teeter's shop - several decades, at least? How long has the Boeing 100/F4B production line taken - several decades? Why? Because of a lack of funding, in my opinion. Remember, Kermit also shut down Fantasy of Flight for a period of time because it was not "breaking even" and "couldn't support itself", as according to Kermit's social media accounts. It is now partially open, but on a limited schedule and mostly for "special events".

So, contrary to popular opinion, Kermit doesn't have an "unlimited" bank account to support everything he wants to do. This is not a knock on him, as I believe he does the best that he can with his limited resources. Unfortunately, it's just reality. I'm glad that there are people such as him that keep the rare aircraft around and restore and fly them occasionally.

[CAPFlyer]

...never received an actual "restoration" in the classic sense

This is the root of the whole problem with Diamond Lil.

It's tough to call an airplane a bomber when it lacks a bombbay and features a giant cargo door in its side. The Ol 927 project did a great deal toward giving a bomber impression, but she sorta comes off like an actor wearing a costume. (The decidedly non-period nose-art doesn't help either.)

If you want to get into "it's not a bomber if it doesn't have doors", then there's several Invaders on the circuit that you'll have to remove from the list since they still have their executive interiors partially or fully intact (and thus no doors). I'm pretty sure there's a B-25 or 2 flying without doors too.

However, on the "actor wearing a costume," that's just BS. None of these airplanes are 100% what they are painted to be. "Lil's" paint scheme is reminiscent of what she wore when she rolled off the assembly line, but has the Neutrality Flag that didn't make it on her nose until after she was a transport (and painted Olive Drab). Collings' B-24J is painted to represent a B-24H. Movie Memphis Belle is a B-17G made up as a B-17F. There's only one or two P-51's actually painted as they were in service. If you're going to call out "Lil", then you've gotta call them all out, but at least give credit that the plane is wearing a paint scheme unique to it; a scheme that at least has a basis in the history of the airplane and not the history of another aircraft altogether.

[warbird51]

...never received an actual "restoration" in the classic sense

This is the root of the whole problem with Diamond Lil.

It's tough to call an airplane a bomber when it lacks a bombbay and features a giant cargo door in its side. The Ol 927 project did a great deal toward giving a bomber impression, but she sorta comes off like an actor wearing a costume. (The decidedly non-period nose-art doesn't help either.)

If you want to get into "it's not a bomber if it doesn't have doors", then there's several Invaders on the circuit that you'll have to remove from the list since they still have their executive interiors partially or fully intact (and thus no doors). I'm pretty sure there's a B-25 or 2 flying without doors too.

However, on the "actor wearing a costume," that's just BS. None of these airplanes are 100% what they are painted to be. "Lil's" paint scheme is reminiscent of what she wore when she rolled off the assembly line, but has the Neutrality Flag that didn't make it on her nose until after she was a transport (and painted Olive Drab). Collings' B-24J is painted to represent a B-24H. Movie Memphis Belle is a B-17G made up as a B-17F. There's only one or two P-51's actually painted as they were in service. If you're going to call out "Lil", then you've gotta call them all out, but at least give credit that the plane is wearing a paint scheme unique to it; a scheme that at least has a basis in the history of the airplane and not the history of another aircraft altogether.

+1. How about all the P-51’s that have the fuselage tank removed and the jump seat installed. Does that make them any less than what they are. Some very historic machines indeed!!! I love them all!!!

[TheBigBadGman]

If you want to get into "it's not a bomber if it doesn't have doors", then there's several Invaders on the circuit that you'll have to remove from the list since they still have their executive interiors partially or fully intact (and thus no doors). I'm pretty sure there's a B-25 or 2 flying without doors too.

However, on the "actor wearing a costume," that's just BS.

This is why I don't post more than I do. It gets hostile on here real quick sometimes.

Likewise, it seems that anytime someone talks about about the Collings Foundation, the discussion quickly turns to Diamond Lil and the issue of accuracy. I just wanted to remind everyone that there is another side to the story. I can see that my point was completely lost.

I tried to be polite about this and I have gone out of my way to hide my true opinions on this matter. I believe I will continue to do so.

I'll just conclude with these thoughts:

1. Kudos to Collings, the CAF, and Kermit for keeping these birds out of the scrapyards.
2. If the CAF gets the opportunity to complete Lil's transition back to a bomber, I sincerely hope they take it.
3. And lastly, I hope that the pilot who hurt his hand is okay.

Cheers.

-G
http://www.gblume.com

[menards]

Just my opinion only, but I don't think we will see any of the large heavy aircraft that Weeks owns fly under his ownership. This includes the B-17, B-24, B-29, Lancaster, Connie and Sunderland. I would also throw in the B-23, B-26 and A-20. These are super expensive restorations that require, literally, many 10's of millions of dollars to restore and/or bring back to airworthy. Based on Kermit's blog, facebook and youtube videos, one can surmise that he doesn't have a lot of money - well, at least disposable money - to use on restorations. Yes, he's a "multi-millionaire" on paper and has many, many assets, but I don't believe he has that much money to use on aircraft restorations.

This is evidenced by the way he does his restorations. Most of them are done "in-house". The few that aren't are normally multi-decade projects. As an example, how long has that A-26 been sitting at Aero Trader - 25 to 30 years? How long has the P-51A been at Art Teeter's shop - several decades, at least? How long has the Boeing 100/F4B production line taken - several decades? Why? Because of a lack of funding, in my opinion. Remember, Kermit also shut down Fantasy of Flight for a period of time because it was not "breaking even" and "couldn't support itself", as according to Kermit's social media accounts. It is now partially open, but on a limited schedule and mostly for "special events".

So, contrary to popular opinion, Kermit doesn't have an "unlimited" bank account to support everything he wants to do. This is not a knock on him, as I believe he does the best that he can with his limited resources. Unfortunately, it's just reality. I'm glad that there are people such as him that keep the rare aircraft around and restore and fly them occasionally.

Before you make broad assumptions about Mr. Weeks, you first need to realize who he is and where he came from. Kermit's grandfather, Lewis Weeks, was the Chief Geologist for Standard Oil of New Jersey. When he retired from Standard Oil, he set up a consulting firm, consulting other oil companies where to drill. He struck a deal with an Australian oil company for 2.5% royalties on everything the company finds, payable to his six heirs continuously with no end date. Kermit himself has been receiving royalty checks of his grandfathers deal since he was 17. In a 1974 Forbes article, Kermit's annual royalty payments were said to be over 100k at that time. It was also estimated in 1974 Forbes article that the Lewis Weeks deal could potentially earn the family over a quarter of a billion 1974 dollars. ($1.3B in 2018 dollars). While the Weeks family is quiet on the royalty payments that still continue to this day, Kermit did say in an interview that the dividend income from his investments has exceeded the oil royalty payments, which should be expected after a lifetime of stockpiling money. These are all facts verifiable using simple google search and a little bit of research.

[CAPFlyer]

This is why I don't post more than I do. It gets hostile on here real quick sometimes...

I tried to be polite about this and I have gone out of my way to hide my true opinions on this matter. I believe I will continue to do so.

I don't see anyone being hostile here beside you. CM missed Jesse's sarcasm and apologized. Several posted clarifications/additional info. You then made a post that started with a specific negative, continued with a broad negative, and then tried to cover it. There followed several posts mainly ignoring your negativity. I chose not to, but I also wasn't hostile in my response. I didn't just call you names or say you were wrong and walk away. I said that it was BS and why it was. You made blanket statements about a single airplane ignoring that, at least with your second "opinion", that the very airplane you were "defending" was in the same situation. No one here is debating who's more accurate. There was discussion about how the media once again got stuff wrong. There was discussion about 'Lil and her continued situation and maintenance. No one saying one or the other was "better" - until your post. It's not a "us or them" thing here. We've been through the discussion/debate/fights about "CF vs. CAF" enough times that most around here, including most with CF and CAF happily co-exist and can talk openly and honestly about the aircraft. Join us in that, don't try to denigrate or diminish them as you have.

[Combatmech]

How come Ol'927 needs 4 new engines at once?

The way I understand it -- someone please correct me if I'm wrong here -- was that they had two engines fail while doing crew training after the first round of heavy maintenance, and a third engine was nearing the end of its life. I know that they purchased four engines, three of which are for the airplane and the fourth is for a spare.

I see Lil every time I'm at the VFM hangar. She's slowly coming together. They're doing a lot of behind-the-scenes work on her, so it isn't visually obvious that big progress is being made. Rumor has it that she will be touring again later this season.

CAF folks... please fill us in on the details if you can. And if I've said anything incorrect here, please correct me.

WAAAAAYYYYYYY too much to post about Diamond LiL. She is a work in progress and should ( open your wallets and pick up a wrench ) be flying again in the future.
And she is getting three engines.

Warbirds n' stuff.

[CAPFlyer]

Interestingly, my Facebook feed today had a post from the B24B29 Squadron that the 2nd engine was being hung on the wing and the 3rd was at the shop, so hopefully we'll see some more updates soon!

[Kyleb]

Back to the original story. I don't understand exactly what happened. Did a loose piece of concrete get tossed by a prop vortex and hit the plane & copilot, or...?

And are we talking serious injuries and major damage or a band-aid and a minor dent in sheet metal?

[CAPFlyer]

Some concrete was "sucked up" by the prop wash, hit a blade and was launched through the side cockpit window and hit the hand of the copilot. According to the CF and other posts, the injury, while not extreme, was more than just a laceration. However I understand the co-pilot did continue with the plane when it left the next day after the nick in the prop had been repaired and window replaced.

[bdk]

Some concrete was "sucked up" by the prop wash, hit a blade and was launched through the side cockpit window and hit the hand of the copilot. According to the CF and other posts, the injury, while not extreme, was more than just a laceration. However I understand the co-pilot did continue with the plane when it left the next day after the nick in the prop had been repaired and window replaced.

Thank you for putting up some boundaries about the true extent of this issue.