NASM P-61 Paint

APG85 · **Posted:** Sat May 13, 2006 6:28 am

Like many I'm thrilled that the NASM's P-61 is finally coming out of dusty oblivian at the Garber facility and is going on display at the Hazy Center.
Having said that, what's the deal with the paint job? I guess I'm not a fan of leaving the chipping black NASA paint on the plane.
I understand that the "new" mentallity with restorations and preservation at Garber is to leave everything as original as possible, but we're not talking about a particularly historic paint job on this aircraft (like B-26 Flak Bait). In fact one of the reasons the paint is in bad shape is because the aircraft was allowed to sit outside for years at Garber before construction of the butler buildings enabled it to be stored indoors.
Any other thoughts/opinions?

Mudge · **Posted:** Sat May 13, 2006 8:11 am

APG...IMWICHU...At what point of the "restoration" do they say, "OK, That's what it looked like when we got it, so let's leave it like that."? I say restore it to what it would have looked like during it's original combat days in WWII.

Mudge the accurate

Richard W. · **Posted:** Sat May 13, 2006 9:16 am

I don't know if this one ever saw combat. I'd still like to see it in it's original USAAF paint, though.

This is from the NASM's own site:

Quote:

NASM's Black Widow is a P-61C-1-NO, U. S. Army Air Forces serial number 43-8330. Northrop delivered it to the Army on July 28, 1945. By October 18, this P-61 was flying at Ladd Field, Alaska, in cold weather tests and it remained there until March 30, 1946. This airplane later moved to Pinecastle Air Force Base, Florida, for participation in the National Thunderstorm Project. The project's goal was to learn more about thunderstorms and to use this knowledge to better protect civil and military airplanes that operated near them. The U. S. Weather Bureau and the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA) undertook the study with cooperation from the Army Air Forces and Navy. With its radar and particular flight characteristics, the P-61 was capable of finding the most turbulent regions of a storm, penetrating them, and returning crew and instruments intact for detailed study.

Pinecastle personnel removed the guns and turret from 43-8330 in July 1946 to make room for new equipment. In September, the aircraft moved to Clinton County Army Air Base, Ohio, where it remained until January 1948. The Air Force then assigned the aircraft to the Flight Test Division at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. After declaring the airplane surplus in 1950, the Air Force stored it at Park Ridge, Illinois, on October 3 along with important aircraft destined for the National Air Museum.

But 43-8830 was not done flying. NACA asked the Smithsonian to lend them the aircraft for use in another special program. The committee wanted to investigate how aerodynamic shapes behaved when dropped from high altitude. The Black Widow arrived at the Ames Aeronautical Laboratory, Naval Air Station Moffett Field, California, on February 14, 1951. NACA returned the aircraft and delivered it to the Smithsonian at Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland, on August 10, 1954. When the engines shut down for the last time, this P-61 had accumulated only 530 total flight hours. Smithsonian personnel trucked it to the Paul Garber Facility in Suitland, Maryland, where it remains today.

APG85 · **Posted:** Sat May 13, 2006 9:19 am

Guess I'd like to see it repainted in it's USAAF livery......

Jerry O'Neill · **Posted:** Sat May 13, 2006 10:11 am

I believe that the "clean-up" of the P-61 was expidited by a large donor, and it was just that, a "clean-up" and corrosion stop once over. So it was never a full blown restoration. Maybe someday, 30 years down the road, they'll take it in for a full and proper restoration. it'll give them time to locate or fabricate all the turrets and military gear.
Jerry

APG85 · **Posted:** Sat May 13, 2006 2:05 pm

That clears it up for me. I'm a big believer in "store them on display". In other words put planes (i.e. Swoose, Flak Bait, etc.) together and display them in an "as is" condition. Remove them from dispaly when time and money is available to restore them.
As for the P-61, I was under the impression that the NASM wanted to keep the "original" black paint.
When the Enola Gay was restored, a decision was made not to touch up the name lettering on the nose in an effort to keep it original. Well, originally the lettering was in perfect condition although it had been overpainted a few months after the A-bomb mission. The NASM gently removed the top layer to show the lettering as it originally appeared. I would have taken it one step further and touched up the areas that chipped off when they removed the top layer. Just my opinion.
All in all, I'm glad that P-61 finally made it to the Hazy center. Now for the Swoose and Flak Bait.............

RMAllnutt · **Posted:** Sat May 13, 2006 4:01 pm

I'm not totally sure of the reason behind exposing the several different layers of paint for the P-61. I do know that when NASM restore most of their aircraft, they like to research the history of the aircraft's service revealed by gently sanding back each layer of paint. The chipped layer of paint which had been on the P-61 during it's days at Garber was non-original and in poor shape, and so it does not seem to be too much of a big deal to remove it.

I personally think that the way the different markings have been exposed is a very interesting touch. It really shows the history of the aircraft off to the visitors, and is a perfect example to visitors of the detective work often employed to determine an artifacts past service, and the accurate placement and style of markings.

The P-61 jumped to the front of the restoration queue at Garber because one of the NASM board members, John Meyers, was a former Northrop test pilot from the WWII era, and he contributed a significant sum of money to the restoration. Mr.Meyers is in his mid-nineties, and it was felt that he should be allowed to live to see his aircraft in one piece again with the restoration work done.

I have seen the aircraft up close at Garber, and now at UHC, and it looks great. They have comepletely refabricated the plexiglass panels, totally restored the radome structure, and the fabric control surfaces. The diverse markings revealed make it stand out, and it's fascinating to look at. It will, in the decades to come, receive a more formal restoration, but for now, I think we should all be very happy to see her cleaned up, and preserved... and on full-time public display.

The chaps at Garber are to be highly commended for the marathon session of work they performed on her over the past gruelling 8 months... it took a great deal of effort to get her back in good shape again.

Hope this helps clear things up.

Cheers,
Richard

APG85 · **Posted:** Sat May 13, 2006 8:36 pm

Thats facinating information. You never get the insiders info off of the NASM's web page. Thanks!

henning · **Posted:** Sun May 14, 2006 12:45 am

John Meyers is pretty famous in P-61 fame.. No wonder they did this.
He was a factory test pilot for northrop and evidently made more than a
few jaws drop with a demonstration of the P-61 that included a very short
take off, climb, and something like feathering an engine, rolling around the
dead engine and bringing the bird into a short field landing... I remember
reading about this long ago and then one of the airplane mags, Wings ?
or its sister pub did a article on this a year or so ago which confirmed it...

Its pretty amazing what he did with it.. Love to meet him someday.
Do we know when the aircraft will roll out? will there be a ceremony or
anything special planned at UH that day?

thanks,
henning

Kaigun Fan · **Joined:** Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:20 am **Posts:** 174

Hello,

I just finished up a detailed article on the NASM XP-55 which was restored and on-loan to the Air ZOO (Kalamazoo, MI.). I heard from them that NASM really wants a PRESERVATION effort VS. RESTORATION. In other words if possible, original items are saved and left as is.

On the XP-55, they simply just cleaned up the cockpit (wear and all) and essentially left it as is. However, the instrument panel had to be restored due to rust issues.

On the exterior, the XP-55 was repainted because it had to be. Since the seams on the airframe were originally filled with aluminum-pigmented paste there was a lot of corrosion issues that needed to be addressed to preserve the XP-55. So, she was cleaned up and repainted in exact markings which were carefully recreated after 800 hours of labor.

Please see the August issue of "Flight Journal" for more detailed info.

Regards,

Ron W.

Pat Carry · **Posted:** Sun May 14, 2006 11:11 am

Like APG85, I'm glad the P-61 is on display. I'm quite certain I will be pushing up daisies before the likes of the Swoose, Flak Bait and the Constellation will be displayed at Udvar Hazy.

ww2John · **Posted:** Sun May 14, 2006 1:10 pm

I'm with APG85's sentiments that NASM should "store on display" whenever possible, especially Flak Bait & The Swoose. I am particularly fond of Flak Bait and hope that NASM moves on displaying that ASAP!

Since I live too far away to be an active volunteer at NASM, I have been sending them money for m-a-n-y years; first to get Udar-Hazy built and now to get the entire complex, including the restoration shop, built and operational.

...just my several dhirams worth... :wink:

Richard W. · **Posted:** Sun May 14, 2006 8:19 pm

John Ceglarek · **Posted:** Tue May 16, 2006 6:27 am

Ron W.

What you posted about the XP-55 is certainly correct. As I understand it, there were several discussions between the AirZoo and NASM regarding how things should be done. They even wanted the original engine oil put back in the engine, IIRC.

John

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