Warbird Information Exchange

I find the fact that the Hispano Ha1112 Buchon fighters that go into a rebuild hangar and come out Messerschmitt Me 109 / Bf 109 fighters do not have provenance. Two thirds of the aircraft is still Spanish if you remove the Daimler Benz Engine. So if you undress a Spanish bullfighter and put Lederhosen / Bundhosen on that person, it does not make them a German Citizen. The change from the Rolls Royce Merlin (which has a lovely sound and the Allison also is not far behind) makes the Daimler Benz not as nice. If this has happened to enhance the sale value, then the prices asked could be a bridge too far. I have often found that a display does benefit and bring comment from certain people concerning the noise. Once when watching a Sopwith Pup move up to a flight line and due to the older engine being used, it was popping and banging and blipping, my wife turned and said it sounded like me first thing in the morning, bless her. Other times I can get bored watching the umpteen Spitfire and possibly in the future Messerschmitt . My best displays were Transport Planes. The Fokker F27 Friendship / Troopship comes under the, if it looks right it is right banner. I watched a Dutch Air Force pilot throw his F27 all over the sky and in another clip in New Zealand watch a pilot move the aircraft from a hardstand to the runway like a Ferrari (this aircraft is with HARS in NSW now). The De Havilland Caribou could go backwards at the same speed as going forward on a runway. If you want me to pick a Warbird then the Commonwealth Boomerang was lovely . So the Hispano Ha1112 Buchon will always be a Hispano Ha1112 Buchon, so please no name changes, it will confuse the born again or mid life crises aircraft enthusiasts of historical facts.

Yes, it won't be a "real" 109, but it will be a German designed airframe with a German engine, not British. So it will be Spanish/German instead of Spainish/German/English. See, they cut out 1/3 of the countries!

A Caribou taxiing backwards..hopefully it had a turbine conversion! (Or was a Buffalo).

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Hi John B

You are right of course that the original plans came from Germany, but due to a shortage of Daimler Benz engines after WW2 and also another local engine in Spain, the Spanish redesigned the aircraft to accept the Rolls Royce Merlin Engine and propeller. These Hispano Buchon fighters have Hispano factory manufactured serial numbers not German manufactured serial numbers. So the provenance remains Spanish and if you are paying up to something like between $2,000,000 and $2,500,000 dollars you want the original German goods.

The De Havilland Canada Caribou was bought by the Royal Australian Air Force for service in the Viet Nam war. They had Pratt & Whitney
engines and could change the direction of their propellers. It was always their party piece in Air shows by landing in a short distance and doing the change to the props and going back to where they touched down and taking off in that same small space. They could not get another aircraft to do the same sort of flying and kept them long after others had scrapped them and it was only the spare parts for the engine's that forced them with regret to buy an Italian plane that although did not do all the things that the Caribou could do, but they do some things better.
You will find in YouTube that it has a few films of an R.A.A.F. Caribou flying at a New Zealand Air Show. One even has it going backwards.

Many of the Buchons had German fuelages and components....

By the way the RAAF love their C-27J Spartans and they are a huge improvement over the CAribou.

Hi Invader26

Only 25 aircraft arrived from Germany and were to be called Me 109Js, by 1943/44 the tide of the war was going against Germany so when the aircraft arrived in Spain they were minus their engines, propellers, armament and tail fins. To compound the issue the jigs and technical drawings were also unforthcoming. So as 1944 came to a close and with no sign of the much needed parts to complete the airframes Hispano Aviacion would change the aircraft in 1945 so that the Hispano Suiza 127-89 engine could be used and these were known as the HA-1109-J1L but the engine was replaced by the 127-17 and a new designation of K1L was given to the aircraft.
It wouldn't be until the 1950s when the definitive version of the Buchon, originally given the designation HA-1109-M1L, would be built when a 1,600-hp Rolls-Royce Merlin 500-45 was installed, giving the aircraft a top speed of 419 mph, and as a result gave the Buchon a distinctive cowling compared to its Bf 109 predecessor. Armament would consist of a pair of 20mm Hispano Suiza cannons and eight 80mm rockets and this flew for the first time on the 24th March 1954 and when this type entered service two years later it was known as the HA-1112-M1L Buchon. The reproductions from Buchon to Messerschmitt were built from the HA-1112. No early Buchons would still be in service by the late 50s or 60s.

I seem to remember that Germany sold Switzerland Me 109Gs near the end of the war and they were so badly made that the swiss wanted money back from Germany post war.

I believe a German manufactured Messerschmitt(The E Model ) is static in a museum in Spain ( Think its the Air Force Museum, but don't quote me ).

Yes the Spartan is better because its a Mini C-130, faster than the caribou, same engines, cockpit and mainly the same cargo pallets, as the Lockheed Hercules but cant do the ultra short field performance the Caribou did and the Radials on the Caribou sounded lovely and the pilots loved it. The RAAF took a long time before picking the Spartan due to that performance issue.Two Caribous are with HARS in NSW and maintained by them in their retirement.

Cheers.

A Buchon as a Buchon is fine with me. The airplane had a long career with the Spanish Air Force and seeing one in the flesh at the Spanish Air Force Museum rated pretty high with me.

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I've always wondered why people get so het up about the Buchon when it is put in Luftwaffe markings, or is converted to a DB powerplant.

I don't ever see the same hostility towards CAC built Mustangs, CCF built Hurricanes, or Westland built Spitfires.

(And the list could go on!)

It's simply a 109 built under license by another company, in a different country, (like the the CAC Mustangs built post WWII), and just so happens to have an alternative engine.

As experienced Warbird pilot, and as someone who has flown both a genuine BF109G (Black 6) and various Buchons, I'll leave you with the words of Cliff Spink: -

"I sometimes get a bit irritated by 'experts' who say that the Buchon is not a real 109. It is, and it was developed in much the same way as other aircraft that had different powerplants put in them as they went through their operational life"

Cheers

Paul

If they weren't built from factory jigs and drawings that changes the complexion of things quite a lot. That would make them reverse-engineered replicas of the originals. It'd be interesting to hear about technicians experience with trying to mix Buchon and original Messer' pieces. This discussion brings to mind the Fieseler vs Morane issues involving the Storch. At what point did they become derivative of the original? I know some folks don't consider any Morane-built to be original Storch even tho France became the sole producer while Fieseler continued on with other projects.

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None of the survivors do, (despite what some owners would have you believe), all have been checked. Even the earlier Tripala on display in Madrid is all Spanish built.
Amazing how many of the original 25 German built fuselages have 'survived.'

The Buchons are a 1950s Spanish licensed built derivative of the Bf109, no more, no less. Has a history all of its own, including combat.

Be nice to see one fly in Spanish colours one day and I believe there is an initiative underway to get one of the ex Edwards aircraft there to do just that.

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It was the Hispano manufacturer that received the licence to build a copy of the Me 109. But due to the unavailable parts and drawings issue with Germany at that stage of the second world war, although I have not seen any mention of it, they must have reversed engineered the various parts from wherever they could get originals to build the aircraft for the Spanish Air Force. Then in 1954 would have re drafted blueprints for the conversion to Rolls Royce Merlins, which became the Hispano HA-1112 Buchon, the model used to convert to Daimler Benz power by a company not of the original manufacturing licence.
So we have a Reproduction of a Messerschmitt Me 109 by Hispano under licence, to then be Reproduced as a Replica Messerschmitt from a Hispano by a company not under licence to Messerschmitt in Europe. I have not a problem with that as long as it was converted and passed as technically fit for use. They can call it a Messerschmitt Me 109 and paint it as a Luftwaffe aircraft and it looks lovely as a Messerschmitt Me 109 as can be seen in the Classic Wings magazine. But to sell this machine as a Messerschmitt Me 109 would allow the legal system to have a field day as two thirds of the aircraft is still Hispano Ha-1112 Buchon. Other aircraft mentioned in forums like the Commonwealth Aircraft Company P-51 Mustang and Sabre. The Commonwealth Mustang is a reproduction of a North American Mustang under licence and not changed in any way from the original. The Commonwealth Sabre is slightly different as it had to be redesigned to accept the Rolls Royce Avon engine and cannons. The centre of gravity was changed, ducting to the engine, armament and even the ejector seat after fatalities have been changed. But it was still built and covered under licence and cannot be changed into a North American Sabre due to the changes while being manufactured by Commonwealth. Which means if you paint it in American Air Force colours it will still be a Commonwealth Sabre.
So paint and fly aircraft to look like something else but watch when you sell it as the legal eagles will bite. The lovely De Havilland Mosquito reproductions are something different as they confirm with the design of the original aircraft and are not built from a different aircraft. Again two thirds of these aircraft are new built, as the original wooden fuselage and wings had changed to firewood and could never be used to make the aircraft fly again. But the engines are of the type that flew in these aircraft and also all other metal parts as well. My preference is to call them Glyn Powell/De Havilland Mosquitoes as without this man they would not be flying or exist but for him.
To show how provenance means a lot, two major museums sold their exhibits. The imperial war museum sold their Casa 352 (Junkers 52) as it was not authentic and the War Museum in Canberra sold its North American Mitchell as it was not the version the R.A.A.F. used.


Cheers.

I'd be surprised if the owners of these multi-million Dollar/Pound/Euro aircraft were not quite familiar with their provenance. Structurally the Buchon is nearly identical to a 109. Most of the engineering data is in common. It isn't like a Jurca wooden Spitfire replica is being claimed as an authentic Spitfire.

Most of the "authentic" 109s out there have a significant amount of new-build structure. There's plenty of discussion in the classic auto world regarding the value and provenance of high value collector cars. This is especially true for ones that were raced where parts were often replaced and were often subject to extensive repairs after crashes.

FHC spent a significant amount of time and money to straighten and reutilize original skins on their FW-190 where they could. It is hard to repair holes corroded in skins or exfoliation on spars for an aircraft intended to be airworthy though without replacing the entire part. The FHC 190 effort is an exception I think, especially if you look at most of the "perfect" Mustang restorations displayed in a bare metal or polished finish. It is much easier just to replace the skins and ink-stamp the sheet metal supplier markings on the inside. That doesn't really make it less of a Mustang, does it?

I would really look forward to a squadron of new-build 109s with the Allison engine conversion, provenance or not! Much cheaper to operate, though the landing difficulties aren't solved.

This is always a fun and contentious discussion. Everyone has their own opinion. Carry on!

[b]bdk[/b]

You hit the nail on the head.
Many of today's warbirds have a significant amount of new material.
Really, there are Spitfires and Mustangs flying whose history includes being buried in beaches or under farm fields for 40-odd years.
Really, and we're supposed to think the skins...and sometimes much more...are original?

As I've said to Spitfire worshipers on the Key forum, don't get misty-eyed thinking that metal wing root fairing is the same one climbed on by one of "the few" or a UK "Rosie" riveting it into place while here husband was off in North Africa. If you want something to fly, you have to make a compromise...

Yes, it's still a historic artifact, just with a lot of new bits.
Rather like old race cars that have been rebuilt following a wreck with a new body tub...not to mention new gearboxes and engines...or a classic car that's been rebodied (usually a Rolls, Bentley or Duesenberg) or even occasionally had a new chassis, while still being the "same" car (serial or chassis #).

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

So in the warbird world "authentic" doesn't really mean authentic and "original" doesn't really mean original. And "dataplate" only refers to a dataplate, i.e a small little rectangle piece of metal. Well that makes sense.

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Good postings. I am glad that enough original Messershmitt Me 109s and Hispanos, plus Avias are in museums. As I have said enough about the subject. DADE has left the building.


Regards,
DADE.

Not true - I sold the B-25 to the Australian War Memorial. To correct the record it was a B-25J. The RAAF operated B-25J's [in addition to D models]. Significantly it was from a batch that included RAAF J's made in Kansas City.