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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:30 am 
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aerovin wrote:
To make a fine but important distinction, Liberty Belle was not a crash but rather an off-field landing with a subsequent uncontrollable fire.

That is a very good point. The pilots made an apparently good decision considering how fast the fire spread and at the end of the day, the loss of an aircraft is far more acceptable than the loss of life. Whatever went wrong, 909 made it back to the airfield at very low altitude and didn't go down into a neighborhood... the pilots were trying.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:17 am 
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4RG.I.'S wrote:
The biggest risk for passengers on such vintage aircraft is a crash-landing or off-airport landing, according to Slack, due to the possibility of post-impact fires because of how the aircraft's fuel tanks are structured and the "lack of crashworthy design." The aircraft's older fuel compartment system is not designed for modern standards, which leaves those on board, particularly at risk if there is a rupture that allows the "volatile" fuel to disperse, according to Slack.
Though nothing should overshadow the loss of life, prayers for those involved.


"Not designed for modern standards?" :roll:

Our TBM still has self-sealing fuel tanks in it, and I'd take that ANY DAY in a minor / moderate crash or impact versus a wet wing!

And in general as far as a "crashworthy" design is concerned, these things are absolute tanks compared to general aviation aircraft. They were designed knowing they'd be shot at and (likely) face off-field landings or ditchings.

For example if you flip over in a low-wing plane like a bonanza and slide or impact anything - there's zero guarantee that the passenger portion of the fuselage will remain intact (as far as the passenger-occupying areas go) - but most military aircraft (well, single-engined ones especially) have the hoist / roll-over frame portions around the canopy that virtually guarantee protection in a roll-over - at least on the TBM.

I just ton't think the type had much to do with this crash from a design-perspective. We've all seen what these birds are capable of enduring damage-wise.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:41 am 
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EstorilM wrote:
"Not designed for modern standards?" :roll:

Our TBM still has self-sealing fuel tanks in it, and I'd take that ANY DAY in a minor / moderate crash or impact versus a wet wing!

And in general as far as a "crashworthy" design is concerned, these things are absolute tanks compared to general aviation aircraft. They were designed knowing they'd be shot at and (likely) face off-field landings or ditchings.

For example if you flip over in a low-wing plane like a bonanza and slide or impact anything - there's zero guarantee that the passenger portion of the fuselage will remain intact (as far as the passenger-occupying areas go) - but most military aircraft (well, single-engined ones especially) have the hoist / roll-over frame portions around the canopy that virtually guarantee protection in a roll-over - at least on the TBM.

Yeah, I'd like to know what this Slack guy thinks of Cirrus fuel tanks...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:44 am 
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RyanShort1 wrote:
Whatever went wrong, 909 made it back to the airfield at very low altitude and didn't go down into a neighborhood... the pilots were trying.


Indeed, and its possible that they would have made it back OK had the height not been so low that they struck those ILS masts out from the threshold........ironically one of those modern aviation safety systems that some of the ban 'em all are mentioning seems to have been the one of contributors to the crash.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:04 am 
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A friend of mine with JSC (Houston) at NASA emailed me yesterday asking if I knew anyone on board (thankfully, no, I replied) as he knew I'd flown with Collings aircraft a few times in the past. He said they actually had a long discussion about these aircraft from this incident, as they study all kinds of accidents to see what can be learned (for example, they have a case study on a partial boiler explosion on a steam locomotive in PA in the 90s, for which the same NASA person asked me to prepare some bullet points for a presentation he was giving on safety as he wasn't familiar with how a locomotive boiler works). He said that while everyone there knew that WW2 planes were still being flown, none realized that they were taking on pax for flights. They'd all assumed those were crew/owner-only flights all this time.
One NASA suit sneered and said, "air shows are going to get a little more boring, after this." commenting that he'd been told by someone that plans were already underway to look into preventing passengers on all former military aircraft operated by non-commercial concerns (as in, not fire bombers). I have no clue how accurate any of this is, as it's third-hand, but I wasn't shocked to hear any of it.
4RG.I.'S wrote:
From Senator Blumenthal:
"I am deeply concerned that these vintage aircraft, decades old, some of them having been involved in crashes before, are still flying," Blumenthal told Fox News. "Until we know exactly what caused this crash, a major tragedy, whether it was a defect in the machine or some problem with maintenance or flying. There should be very serious scrutiny over these planes before they're allowed back in the air."

Did anyone here not see this coming?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:20 am 
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p51 wrote:
A friend of mine with JSC (Houston) at NASA emailed me yesterday asking if I knew anyone on board (thankfully, no, I replied) as he knew I'd flown with Collings aircraft a few times in the past. He said they actually had a long discussion about these aircraft from this incident, as they study all kinds of accidents to see what can be learned (for example, they have a case study on a partial boiler explosion on a steam locomotive in PA in the 90s, for which the same NASA person asked me to prepare some bullet points for a presentation he was giving on safety as he wasn't familiar with how a locomotive boiler works). He said that while everyone there knew that WW2 planes were still being flown, none realized that they were taking on pax for flights. They'd all assumed those were crew/owner-only flights all this time.


Perhaps they should talk to to some of the NASA employee's at their Ames Research Center at Moffat Field in Ca, as two of the PAX that flew with me on the Collings B-25 out of Moffat back in 2007 were NASA employees based there, and NASA had in fact paid for the tickets on that flight and for a number of others for the B-25 that day. 3 x per trip that morning at least from memory of what they told me.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:33 am 
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The FAA established an updated policy in 2015 for the Living History Flight Experiences with established safeguards and provisions for "equivalent level of safety." At the time it appeared to be a well-crafted compromise to allow these flights to continue. I hope it holds up to the political scrutiny that is coming. Sadly, the sound bites miss the already-established requirements established that have allowed these flights to operate.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:47 am 
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The arguments on the age of these airframes is annoying to me. Most of these bombers have a fraction of the flight time of you average airliner.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:03 am 
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RyanShort1 wrote:
Yeah, I'd like to know what this Slack guy thinks of Cirrus fuel tanks...


Or Robinsons...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:05 am 
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p51 wrote:
Did anyone here not see this coming?


One thing in favor of the Warbird side is that Blumenthal has ZERO credibility.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:21 am 
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Being an aviation lawyer with an active lawsuit going on, I suspect he is doing some "ambulance chasing" for more business. Anyone that cares about aviation would not be making the comments he did at this time.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:04 pm 
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4RG.I.'S wrote:
The calls for stopping these experience flights (and, depending on how Mr. Blumenthal's statements are read, possibly warbird flights in general?) are sadly beginning...
From Senator Blumenthal:
"I am deeply concerned that these vintage aircraft, decades old, some of them having been involved in crashes before, are still flying," Blumenthal told Fox News. "Until we know exactly what caused this crash, a major tragedy, whether it was a defect in the machine or some problem with maintenance or flying. There should be very serious scrutiny over these planes before they're allowed back in the air."

From a warbird owner/lawyer:

Those who step on board the vintage aircraft may not know or realize the unique risks that come with the planes that were never intended to be used for civilian tour flights, according to Michael Slack a former NASA engineer, a licensed pilot and aviation attorney with Slack Davis Sanger.

"We have a real disconnect between original purpose and the contemporary purpose," Slack said Thursday. Slack, who owns his own World War II-era plane, a North American T-6 Texan trainer, told Fox News that aircraft such as the B-17 face "significant" maintenance challenges with the older engine and hydraulic systems not using original manufactured, but fabricated, parts in order to keep flying.

The biggest risk for passengers on such vintage aircraft is a crash-landing or off-airport landing, according to Slack, due to the possibility of post-impact fires because of how the aircraft's fuel tanks are structured and the "lack of crashworthy design." The aircraft's older fuel compartment system is not designed for modern standards, which leaves those on board, particularly at risk if there is a rupture that allows the "volatile" fuel to disperse, according to Slack.
Though nothing should overshadow the loss of life, prayers for those involved.


If the Galloping Ghost didn't shut down the Air Races at Reno...then this one incident probably, maybe wont stop the historic flight/ride program. Again, the avenue or pathway to a historic ride program may remain in existence, but meeting all the necessary requirements may be the insurmountable task for some groups. It will remain to be seen what (if anything) becomes of this. Knee-jerk reactions usually happen quick.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:11 pm 
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I know how unreliable eyewitness accounts can be, but this one struck me as disturbing. The fact that the guy knows what a B-17 is elevates his credibility but add to knowledge of how the engines are numbered, makes his statement alarming. The crew clearly stated they were having a problem with #4.

https://www.kptv.com/video-eyewitness-r ... b0666.html


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Slack wrote:

"....aircraft such as the B-17 face "significant" maintenance challenges with the older engine and hydraulic systems not using original manufactured, but fabricated, parts in order to keep flying.


...that have to meet the spec of the original part using modern metallurgy and machining techniques. Machining has come a long way from the 40's. Tolerances that were at that time almost impossible to meet are commonplace today. The replacement parts being made today either meet or far exceed anything made in the 40's. But hey, lets make it sound like some hillbilly is hacking together some sub-standard parts out in his woodshed instead. ...I know which aviation lawyer I'm NOT calling if I ever need one. Idiot.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:15 pm 
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What are the chances they put jet fuel in ?

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