LM-100J (C-130J) does a loop at Farnborough 2018

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:22 am

Just from a technical perspective, that's not actually a loop. Maneuver #7 on the card.

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:38 am

Randy, where was that published? I've been saying for over a year that it wasn't a loop and pretty much no one believed me. That graphic would've been nice to have. :lol:

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:01 am

CAPFlyer wrote:

Randy, where was that published? I've been saying for over a year that it wasn't a loop and pretty much no one believed me. That graphic would've been nice to have. :lol:

That was distributed by L-M at the airshow.

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:37 pm

Randy Haskin wrote:

CAPFlyer wrote:

Randy, where was that published? I've been saying for over a year that it wasn't a loop and pretty much no one believed me. That graphic would've been nice to have. :lol:

That was distributed by L-M at the airshow.

Figures. Funny that several "reputable" aviation sites ran with the loop story then even though they should have had people at the show and presumably would've been able to get that.

sledge39 · **Joined:** Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:01 pm **Posts:** 262

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A few grabs for further study....

C VEICH · **Joined:** Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:40 pm **Posts:** 1471

I don't see anything on that card that looks like the maneuver in the video starting at about 6:55. Had I been at the show I think I would have called it a loop as well.

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:30 pm

It was inverted thought right. Although the card showed wasn't a loop, wouldn't a loop have been relatively easy after it got inverted? It seems like the maneuvers it did where more complicated than completing a loop.

I'm not a pilot so feel free to educate me on this subject.

Dan Jones · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:04 am

We tried to loop the Herc sim once. I believe we died.

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:10 am

Don't rely on the video. It is deceptive because of the flat sky background, location of the camera, and thus perspective. You don't have actual clues as to the pitch and roll of the aircraft beside it is 90 degrees to the camera. Because the camera was near the show line, it had an extremely high actual angle to the aircraft (more than 60 degrees) and thus a maneuver at even a 60 degree vertical line would appear to be vertical on the video. This is the problem I have with the video - it doesn't give proper perspective. The "hype" over the maneuver at the time of the thread was mostly from laypeople and lay media (i.e. non-aviation media) based off of the videos, not off actual in-person reporting. I still am not fully convinced that they flew a full loop and not the described maneuver, or a variation thereof, in the media guide and never actually looped the plane, instead flying a deep chandelle into a barrel roll (a nominally 1G maneuver) recovery. Being that this maneuver was done over top of the crowd at show center, it gave the appearance of a loop when in fact it wasn't.

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:57 pm

Just to start with some definitions, a "loop" has an entry at a particular altitude and direction, inscribes a 360-degree circle in the pure vertical, and exits at essentially the same altitude and direction as the entry.

It is different than an Immelman, a cloverleaf, a half Cuban 8, a pitchback or a sliceback, or any other number of "over the top" maneuvers that do not begin and end at the same place going the same direction and/or have an oblique vertical component.

This maneuver doesn't enter and exit on the same heading, nor is the vertical component pure.

So...not a loop.

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:01 pm

Scott Rose wrote:

It was inverted thought right. Although the card showed wasn't a loop, wouldn't a loop have been relatively easy after it got inverted? It seems like the maneuvers it did where more complicated than completing a loop.

I'm not a pilot so feel free to educate me on this subject.

Here's the test pilot's description:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... -robertson

Quote:

Now, I say all that because I inclined the show at the loop 20 degrees, and that's why it's not quite a loop, but I do that for safety purposes. It actually gives me more options to get out of an engine failure than a straight loop. But it's a minor difference from the crowd point of view, and the way I do the loop, you can't see the 20 degrees bank much, so it's a little bit of an optical illusion but not much.

So, what I do is instead of just pulling straight up, I roll the 20 degrees angle of bank, and you can see that in the video, and then I pull straight back. The airplane goes up to about 70 degrees nose up instead of 90, and then over the top, instead of 180 degrees angle of bank, I'm at about 150 or so. It is a loop. It's just a loop inclined a little bit because it gives me better escape maneuver capability for any kind of a failure.

sledge39 · **Joined:** Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:01 pm **Posts:** 262

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...The 20 deg bank entry...

C VEICH · **Joined:** Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:40 pm **Posts:** 1471

Randy Haskin wrote:

Here's the test pilot's description:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... -robertson

Quote:

Now, I say all that because I inclined the show at the loop 20 degrees, and that's why it's not quite a loop, but I do that for safety purposes. It actually gives me more options to get out of an engine failure than a straight loop. But it's a minor difference from the crowd point of view, and the way I do the loop, you can't see the 20 degrees bank much, so it's a little bit of an optical illusion but not much.

So, what I do is instead of just pulling straight up, I roll the 20 degrees angle of bank, and you can see that in the video, and then I pull straight back. The airplane goes up to about 70 degrees nose up instead of 90, and then over the top, instead of 180 degrees angle of bank, I'm at about 150 or so. It is a loop. It's just a loop inclined a little bit because it gives me better escape maneuver capability for any kind of a failure.

First he says it's not quite a loop and then he wraps up by saying it is a loop but an inclined loop. So if the pilot does not even know for sure if it's a loop or not then I guess we can give those reporting on it a pass.

Andy Marden · **Posted:** Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:39 am

If you want to see a transport aircraft looping, get a video of an Italian Air Force C-27J display....

Ken · **Posted:** Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:46 am

Thanks for posting the test pilot quote, as I had recalled him making that description but there was no way I was going to be able to go back and locate his words short notice. As I progressed through the threads, the word "sliceback" was also in my mind and then Randy interjected it; T-38 memories.

Off-axis loop or sliceback works for me. As a previous poster said, any of these sales demos are much like what Bob Hoover would do and, at their core, showcase slightly more of the pilot's skill than the airplane's capabilities. If any airplane has the ability to keep sufficient speed & G for maneuver X, and the pilot has the skills & cojones to demonstrate that, then there ya go. Granted the airplane is flown at an absolute minimum weight and ... possibly ... at a power setting not normally approved for continuous use.

As a 4000 hour Herk pilot, nothing in the routine surprises me per se, I always knew she could do it. While we regularly explored more sections of the envelope during tactical flying than the public may realize, we looked more like a Fat Albert demo than a Farnborough one.

It was fun watching the video - both seeing her dance and appreciating the crew's planning and skill in action.

Ken

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LM-100J (C-130J) does a loop at Farnborough 2018

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