Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:54 pm
Recent discussions about the accuracy of markings on restored WWII aircraft reminded me of a major “oops” that occurred in a large volume titled “Austro-Hungarian Army Aircraft of World War One” by Peter M. Grosz, George Haddow and Peter Schiemer, published initially in 1993 and running to 563 pages. In the first edition, there was a section titled “Color and Camouflage” of about 87 pages with 56 color pages in color. In the intro to this section, a master model builder (I’m not going to include the name) was credited with the research used by the artist to create the color plates, some of which are quite striking.
Some years later, I noticed the publication, in 2002, of a second edition of the book which was noted to have some significant revisions. When I saw a copy available at a decent price, I added the second edition to my library. I was rather surprised by the Preface to the Second Edition, saying that the color section had been entirely removed from the second edition. The explanation was that in the eight or so years since the first edition was published, further microscopic analysis of German and Allied aircraft fabrics and paints had been made, and when the fabric color samples used to create the color plates in the first edition were submitted to examination, it was determined that they “had not been taken from World War One Austro-Hungarian aircraft.” Due to this the authors chose, to remain “dedicated to accuracy and authenticity” to not include the color section in the second edition.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything quite like this, at least in a fairly modern aviation work, and the authors should be respected for their actions, in my opinion. I share this as I don’t know how many WIX members are heavily into WWI aviation history, and I suspect the book mentioned is not a common one. I also have seen digital images of some of the color plates on a few web sites. Just FYI. Again, I post this only as an example of how time can change even the best research in many fields. Stuck at home due to the current virus situation, I may have too much time on my hands. Moving on now. Fly safe.
Randy
Some years later, I noticed the publication, in 2002, of a second edition of the book which was noted to have some significant revisions. When I saw a copy available at a decent price, I added the second edition to my library. I was rather surprised by the Preface to the Second Edition, saying that the color section had been entirely removed from the second edition. The explanation was that in the eight or so years since the first edition was published, further microscopic analysis of German and Allied aircraft fabrics and paints had been made, and when the fabric color samples used to create the color plates in the first edition were submitted to examination, it was determined that they “had not been taken from World War One Austro-Hungarian aircraft.” Due to this the authors chose, to remain “dedicated to accuracy and authenticity” to not include the color section in the second edition.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything quite like this, at least in a fairly modern aviation work, and the authors should be respected for their actions, in my opinion. I share this as I don’t know how many WIX members are heavily into WWI aviation history, and I suspect the book mentioned is not a common one. I also have seen digital images of some of the color plates on a few web sites. Just FYI. Again, I post this only as an example of how time can change even the best research in many fields. Stuck at home due to the current virus situation, I may have too much time on my hands. Moving on now. Fly safe.
Randy
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:49 pm
There was a well-known author/researcher back in the '50s/60s/70s, who apparently concocted many items of aircraft fabric, supposedly taken from Great War aircraft and used to substantiate the researcher's theories on WW1 aircraft colouring.
Sadly I can't recall the author's name but I will see if I can locate a reference. For many years, with no contemporary colour photos to disprove him, his word was taken as gospel.
There are other examples however; more than one F-86 colour scheme has been rendered in later years with incorrect colours and there is one airworthy, present-day F-86 that is painted the wrong colour too: again, that seems to have derived from someone interpreting a monochrome photograph incorrectly and then rendering that as a colour profile in a modern publication.
Sadly I can't recall the author's name but I will see if I can locate a reference. For many years, with no contemporary colour photos to disprove him, his word was taken as gospel.
There are other examples however; more than one F-86 colour scheme has been rendered in later years with incorrect colours and there is one airworthy, present-day F-86 that is painted the wrong colour too: again, that seems to have derived from someone interpreting a monochrome photograph incorrectly and then rendering that as a colour profile in a modern publication.
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:19 am
This is a really interesting topic. I am actually grappling with paint scheme interpretation issues with the restoration/replica build of my SNJ-2/Harvard MK II.
Not to hijack this thread, but it is based upon SNJ-2 BuNo 2549 which was assigned to Rear Admiral Aubrey Fitch, Commander Carrier Division One. It had a very distinctive “Blue Goose” paint scheme that was partially intact upon the recovery of the wreckage. There is also only one known photograph of this aircraft, that is in black and white.
Over the years there have been several color profiles of this aircraft created, one of which was featured in the popular Squadron Signal “In Action” series of books for the T-6/SNJ aircraft. There was also a decal set created that featured this exact aircraft. There is also a restored SNJ-2 that mostly features this paint scheme but has a marine corp rudder marking.
The two issues I found with all of the profiles is with aircraft version type depicted and colors. All of the profiles featured the standard AT6 A-D/SNJ-3/4 that featured the “gunnery” tail cone and moveable rear canopy with a “boat tail” SNJ-1/2 rudder added on to make look like a SNJ-2. The SNJ-2 actually featured a fixed rear canopy like the Harvard and Yale. The SNJ-2 also had a unique tailcone for the T-6/SNJ series that was approximately 5 13/16’ shorter.
Color wise, the fuselage colors in the book (which also has the picture of the actual aircraft) were also incorrect with white wings and fuselage lettering presented. At least one other color profile based the inaccurate book drawing exists.
The reality of the paint scheme is a bit complicated. The wings were partially painted standard chrome yellow with to the leading edges and bare aluminum on the bottom. The blue however was a very special “Admiral Blue” that was much darker than the standard training scheme “AN Blue”. There is no known paint specification to reference and has been said to closely resemble “Insignia Blue”. The distinctive white tail color seemed to be the one item agreed upon in all depictions, again “Insignia White”. The sheen seemed to be semi gloss (I have not confirmed this)
The most “controversial” aspect of the paint scheme was the color of the lettering. From the model decal set instructions “There are conflicting references for the color of the fuselage lettering some yellow, some suggest aluminum some say white”. The model kit and color profile lettering are depicted in white and the restored SNJ-2 in yellow.
Knowing all of this, I was curious what colors were left on the recovered wreckage of BuNo 2549. Fortunately after approximately 50 years of exposure on top of a mountain and having burnt after its crash landing some of the lettering and fuselage, tail colors still existed. However this is where I really struggled. The areas that had been covered by fairings had some of the blue but it was not as dark as insignia blue and the lettering “appeared” yellow but I could not exactly determine it. I tried all types of color experiments with pictures to take color and digitally turn them black and white to approximate the light or darkness of white/yellow to try and solve the puzzle. I also referenced other pictures/depictions of other “Blue Goose” aircraft schemes and found they too were not consistent. I was at a standstill until other factors intervened. Colors photos of the crash site taken by Pat Macha were discovered through the
assistance of David Trojan that showed more detail.
After returning the wreckage of BuNo 2549 to the Navy/NHHC last year and the unfortunate decision was made to scrap it, I decided to immortalize the history of the airframe. I purchased another “early” T-6 airframe (Harvard Mk II) that had been constructed within a few months of BuNo 2549 and modify/restore it as a replica of the original. Through much time and expense I located and paid to have some of the original SNJ-2 drawings digitized to enable the Harvard fuselage to be accurately modified (the center section and wings will be standard T-6 as the SNJ-2 had a special “wet wing” center section that would be cost prohibitive and nearly impossible to replicate).
To provide inspiration for the Harvard MkII restoration as well as illustrate the book I decided to write about the history of BuNo 2549, I also commissioned two paintings to try as closely possible accurately depict the markings and colors of the aircraft. Working with UK based artist Matthew Emeny, the first “Never Forget Never Give Up” depicts the aircraft in 1942 markings configuration the day it crashed 2/14/42. The crash photos revealed the wing markings had been enlarged per the post Pearl Harbor Navy paint scheme tech order as well as the absence of the Admiral’s stars on the side of the fuselage. After much deliberation, we decided to also feature the fuselage lettering in white.
The second painting “Brown Shoe Navy” was chosen to highlight the pride of the prewar Navy and depict not only SNJ-2 BuNo 2549, but also Admiral Fitch’s other assigned aircraft SB2U-2 BuNo 1343 as well as his flag ship USS Saratoga (CV-3). We chose the same colors as the first painting but revised the size of the wing insignia to prewar and this time showed the distinctive “admiral stars” that could be inserted into a special holder on each fuselage side.
Through this whole experience, I have tried to ensure that SNJ-2 BuNo 2549 will be remembered and “Never Forgotten” accurately.
Not to hijack this thread, but it is based upon SNJ-2 BuNo 2549 which was assigned to Rear Admiral Aubrey Fitch, Commander Carrier Division One. It had a very distinctive “Blue Goose” paint scheme that was partially intact upon the recovery of the wreckage. There is also only one known photograph of this aircraft, that is in black and white.
Over the years there have been several color profiles of this aircraft created, one of which was featured in the popular Squadron Signal “In Action” series of books for the T-6/SNJ aircraft. There was also a decal set created that featured this exact aircraft. There is also a restored SNJ-2 that mostly features this paint scheme but has a marine corp rudder marking.
The two issues I found with all of the profiles is with aircraft version type depicted and colors. All of the profiles featured the standard AT6 A-D/SNJ-3/4 that featured the “gunnery” tail cone and moveable rear canopy with a “boat tail” SNJ-1/2 rudder added on to make look like a SNJ-2. The SNJ-2 actually featured a fixed rear canopy like the Harvard and Yale. The SNJ-2 also had a unique tailcone for the T-6/SNJ series that was approximately 5 13/16’ shorter.
Color wise, the fuselage colors in the book (which also has the picture of the actual aircraft) were also incorrect with white wings and fuselage lettering presented. At least one other color profile based the inaccurate book drawing exists.
The reality of the paint scheme is a bit complicated. The wings were partially painted standard chrome yellow with to the leading edges and bare aluminum on the bottom. The blue however was a very special “Admiral Blue” that was much darker than the standard training scheme “AN Blue”. There is no known paint specification to reference and has been said to closely resemble “Insignia Blue”. The distinctive white tail color seemed to be the one item agreed upon in all depictions, again “Insignia White”. The sheen seemed to be semi gloss (I have not confirmed this)
The most “controversial” aspect of the paint scheme was the color of the lettering. From the model decal set instructions “There are conflicting references for the color of the fuselage lettering some yellow, some suggest aluminum some say white”. The model kit and color profile lettering are depicted in white and the restored SNJ-2 in yellow.
Knowing all of this, I was curious what colors were left on the recovered wreckage of BuNo 2549. Fortunately after approximately 50 years of exposure on top of a mountain and having burnt after its crash landing some of the lettering and fuselage, tail colors still existed. However this is where I really struggled. The areas that had been covered by fairings had some of the blue but it was not as dark as insignia blue and the lettering “appeared” yellow but I could not exactly determine it. I tried all types of color experiments with pictures to take color and digitally turn them black and white to approximate the light or darkness of white/yellow to try and solve the puzzle. I also referenced other pictures/depictions of other “Blue Goose” aircraft schemes and found they too were not consistent. I was at a standstill until other factors intervened. Colors photos of the crash site taken by Pat Macha were discovered through the
assistance of David Trojan that showed more detail.
After returning the wreckage of BuNo 2549 to the Navy/NHHC last year and the unfortunate decision was made to scrap it, I decided to immortalize the history of the airframe. I purchased another “early” T-6 airframe (Harvard Mk II) that had been constructed within a few months of BuNo 2549 and modify/restore it as a replica of the original. Through much time and expense I located and paid to have some of the original SNJ-2 drawings digitized to enable the Harvard fuselage to be accurately modified (the center section and wings will be standard T-6 as the SNJ-2 had a special “wet wing” center section that would be cost prohibitive and nearly impossible to replicate).
To provide inspiration for the Harvard MkII restoration as well as illustrate the book I decided to write about the history of BuNo 2549, I also commissioned two paintings to try as closely possible accurately depict the markings and colors of the aircraft. Working with UK based artist Matthew Emeny, the first “Never Forget Never Give Up” depicts the aircraft in 1942 markings configuration the day it crashed 2/14/42. The crash photos revealed the wing markings had been enlarged per the post Pearl Harbor Navy paint scheme tech order as well as the absence of the Admiral’s stars on the side of the fuselage. After much deliberation, we decided to also feature the fuselage lettering in white.
The second painting “Brown Shoe Navy” was chosen to highlight the pride of the prewar Navy and depict not only SNJ-2 BuNo 2549, but also Admiral Fitch’s other assigned aircraft SB2U-2 BuNo 1343 as well as his flag ship USS Saratoga (CV-3). We chose the same colors as the first painting but revised the size of the wing insignia to prewar and this time showed the distinctive “admiral stars” that could be inserted into a special holder on each fuselage side.
Through this whole experience, I have tried to ensure that SNJ-2 BuNo 2549 will be remembered and “Never Forgotten” accurately.
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Last edited by VCS1 on Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:31 am
Pictured is the flyable SNJ-2 painted as BuNo 2549 but features USMC markings on the rudder.
Also shown are Matthew Emeny’s two paintings “Brown Shoe Navy” and “Never Forget Never Give Up”. These are available as prints from Matthew’s website:
https://www.emenyart.com/
Final picture shows the original vertical stabilizer with the faint markings of 2549 along side a “replica” painted insignia white with 2549 applied.
Also shown are Matthew Emeny’s two paintings “Brown Shoe Navy” and “Never Forget Never Give Up”. These are available as prints from Matthew’s website:
https://www.emenyart.com/
Final picture shows the original vertical stabilizer with the faint markings of 2549 along side a “replica” painted insignia white with 2549 applied.
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Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:29 am
What the Navy did to 2549 is absolutely unforgivable, and I suspect you have the appreciation and encouragement of most, if not all the members of WIX in your endeavors to recreate that beautiful SNJ. One point I wanted to highlight, based on info I learned right here on WIX... the anti-glare panel of a prewar SNJ was painted in Bronze Green, not black. The reflectivity of the anti-glare on the pic you posted earlier looks much brighter than one would expect with a flat black panel, and I also offer the attached photo of SNJ-2 BuNo 2015 showing the Bronze Green anti-glare panel.
Cheers, and keep up the great work!
Lynn
Cheers, and keep up the great work!
Lynn
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Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:21 pm
As an aviation historian and author, I tell everybody that "One a book is in print" it is already obsolete.
It never stops amazing me that almost immediately after a book is at the printer, a new piece of research appears, a photograph appears, that should have been included in the book.
But without books from 50 ~ 60 years ago, which laid the foundation for much of WWII aviation history, numerous youngsters would not have found a source to keep this material going.
Remember the original Aircam series, the FAS books, first 20 editions of Squadron Signal in action -- well obsolete books by today's standards, however there still be found good reference material in them
It never stops amazing me that almost immediately after a book is at the printer, a new piece of research appears, a photograph appears, that should have been included in the book.
But without books from 50 ~ 60 years ago, which laid the foundation for much of WWII aviation history, numerous youngsters would not have found a source to keep this material going.
Remember the original Aircam series, the FAS books, first 20 editions of Squadron Signal in action -- well obsolete books by today's standards, however there still be found good reference material in them
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:33 pm
wolf wrote:It never stops amazing me that almost immediately after a book is at the printer, a new piece of research appears, a photograph appears, that should have been included in the book.
I am reminded of well respected r/c scale model designer/builder/competitor Dave Platt and his laws of scale model building. Platt's law number one states that "All of the best information on a subject arrives the day that the model is done, and proves conclusively that what you have done is wrong". Pretty much sums it up.
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:06 am
Something to remember about Bronze-Green... There are a number of versions of it, and it ranges from a shade near OD Green, to something closer to a turquoise green. In digging around on my Fairchild, I’ve found several variations of it. Taigh is the only person that I know of that has an original color sample card for B-G #9. I’m hoping one of these days I can get him to have it run under a photo spectrometer, and get a full reading, so I can compare it to the pieces that I have.
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:50 am
Ive seen an original Spitfire throttle quadrant that had about 5 different shades of British Cockpit green on it.People still get iffy on original Zero colours as well as OD..
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:16 am
Cvairwerks wrote:Something to remember about Bronze-Green... There are a number of versions of it, and it ranges from a shade near OD Green, to something closer to a turquoise green. In digging around on my Fairchild, I’ve found several variations of it. Taigh is the only person that I know of that has an original color sample card for B-G #9. I’m hoping one of these days I can get him to have it run under a photo spectrometer, and get a full reading, so I can compare it to the pieces that I have.
There are actually a number of versions of green US interior colors, but only one of them is Bronze Green. It can be found on the pre-war Specification 3-1 color card as "Bronze Green No. 9." The other interior colors include two versions of Dull Dark Green, multiple versions of green-tinted zinc chromate primer (the best known of which called "Interior Green" was the only version to actually have a color standard chip), Pine Green (a dark lacquer favored by Douglas), and an unidentified dark green used on pre-war Boeing aircraft and later found in some B-17s.
Cheers,
Dana
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:43 pm
Dana: The interior of my Fairchild is listed as being Flat Bronze-Green. There are at least 3 different shades of it on the pieces that I know are not sun faded. I need to cull though them all and run them to someone that has a photo spectrometer to get the data one of these days when I get some time.
For grins, the forward gunner/bombardier compartment is painted Yellow-Green, with the following color mix per the SRM:
1 gallon Zinc Chromate primer AN-TT-P-656a
1/10 gallon Black Enamel AAF Spec 14109-B
1 gallon Toluene Substitute AN-T-8b
For grins, the forward gunner/bombardier compartment is painted Yellow-Green, with the following color mix per the SRM:
1 gallon Zinc Chromate primer AN-TT-P-656a
1/10 gallon Black Enamel AAF Spec 14109-B
1 gallon Toluene Substitute AN-T-8b
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:18 pm
Or you can just go with twin stars
.
.
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:03 pm
I remember reading from Robert Mikesh's book "Restoring Museum Aircraft" that colors that were made to specification in different parts of the country would look the same when new but would fade to different shades over time due to what pigments were used to get the original color.
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:12 pm
John Dupre wrote:I remember reading from Robert Mikesh's book "Restoring Museum Aircraft" that colors that were made to specification in different parts of the country would look the same when new but would fade to different shades over time due to what pigments were used to get the original color.
If you want fun, try Japanese ship colors - each of the major Japanese ship yards had there own version / shade of imperial grey.
.
Re: Just a note on aircraft research pitfalls
Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:40 pm
Not close to the same but of personal interest, as it involved my dad's old squadron. Impact decals produced a sheet of decals for various VMF-225 aircraft, including an F4U-4. Curiously, the decal showed "VMF-225" in yellow. I sent them the color picture I had of the plane they profiled (SI-10) and they later updated the sheet and changed the lettering to white. EDIT: SI-10 in flight picture courtesy of Jim Sullivan, who featured it in one of the "Corsair in Action" books. SI-10 at Cherry Point pic courtesy of Eric Tadlock, who's dad was in the squadron at the same time as my dad.
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- VMF-225 BuNo 96802 at the Cleveland Air Show, 1947
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- Impact Decals sheet showing yellow "VMF-225"
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- SI-10 at USMC Cherry Point, Feb 1947
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- Updated decal sheet