Mig-23 Down, Thunder Over Michigan, both pilots O.K.

[JohnB]

The whole, "ride it down to avoid the women and kids" shtick is romantic nonsense.

I'm sure the ghosts of several hundred airmen would disagree.

[Ken]

Randy’s posts have been spot-on and I say this having only a fraction of his ejection seat time.

One point to acknowledge is that an ejection seat, CAPS, or manual parachute isn’t a guaranteed remedy, rather, they are “trades of one emergency for another”. In other words, you work the emergency as far as you can, and when the risk of harm from emergency #1 becomes greater than the risk of bailing out, you bail out, particularly at/below a predetermined altitude floor. It’s worth mentioning that you hope that the bailout works as advertised, in the time remaining. This is why “steering away from houses” is, at most, quite uncommon, as there simply isn’t a second available in the timeline between where saving the jet ends and egress begins.

I will contrast that a manual bailout (e.g. Texan, Skyraider, etc) is a much more cumbersome affair when compared to an ejection seat, and there are no doubt instances where pilots elected, for a variety of reasons, not to bail out, but to attempt a forced landing instead. In those cases, you can bet they were looking for the most open area available, whether their actions were heroic or not. These truths aren’t intended to disparage anyone who did/did not bail out or who did/did not consciously guide their craft to a specific spot – what I do assume is that each pilot was doing the best they could at the time. If you haven’t dealt with a time-critical emergency, it’s hard to explain … and, if you have, you know that each situation is unique enough that it's appropriate to be cautious judging another’s choices.

Ward’s video hints that the rear pilot presumably had MiG-23 experience. This causes me to ponder - if an experienced pilot, who is not fully absorbed in troubleshooting, believes that an ejection is needed so immediately as to not assure body position, command ejection, and recall deliberately pulling the handle, then things may have been going bad more quickly than we, in our armchairs, can fully appreciate. Randy nails all of this in his comments, particularly regarding channelized attention and time distortion.

We may never definitively know what the engine malfunction was, but investigators will derive a fairly accurate (and likely decaying) energy state of the MiG and compare this with the seat envelope. The scientific result will show if the egress was made “at the last second”, before, or after. Maybe that will quell some of the speculation.

Ken

[Xray]

Obviously both men felt they had the proper grasp on the situation, not possible for both to have been correct and not enough relevant info to come to a determination. Pilots sentiments cannot be easily dismissed, nor are they the last word - He might well have been overly absorbed and fixated, or the rear seater may well have jumped the gun. We know it was straight and level with power around the time of the ejection, we also know it was very low, was soon to bank to the left and sink, and don't know if they had enough power to maintain lift.

I wonder if the ejection[s] themselves caused the nose to dip ? Stands to reason that a force like that would have some effect on a faltering aircraft, but of course would not have mattered if it could not maintain lift and altitude anyhow.

[RyanShort1]

I wonder if the ejection[s] themselves caused the nose to dip? Stands to reason that a force like that would have some effect on a faltering aircraft, but of course would not have mattered if it could not maintain lift and altitude anyhow.

But it's also less weight. Keep that weight in the plane and perhaps they'd have impacted even shorter.

[Matt Gunsch]

Anyone who thinks a pilot is going to ride it in to save someone on the ground is full of it, they are trying to save their own behind first and anyone who happens to be with them. Scully did not land in the hudson to save everyone on the flight, he was saving his own butt and everyone else was along for the ride, no matter the outcome. That said, at airshows where the military performs, included in the briefing are preferred punch out areas. In the T-6, Carl and I talked it over a number of times and unless the plane was on fire, or missing pieces, we would ride it down to a forced landing. In all the years I have been going to and taking part in airshows, I have seen only 1 bailout, and that was the super Corsair at the Phx 500, Kevin did not point the plane away, when Bob Hoover said to bail out, he did not wait, in that case the plane was pointed into a mostly open area and did impact on the GM proving grounds.

[Xray]

Anyone who thinks a pilot is going to ride it in to save someone on the ground is full of it, they are trying to save their own behind first and anyone who happens to be with them.

Very little if anything in human pursuits is absolute, look up "William E. Dyess" before spouting on this topic

[RyanShort1]

Here's a scoop from the back seater.

https://youtu.be/Ftcn3NwAZCI?si=j0SJOT9SlpgwRHRs

[Randy Haskin]

Randy, my lackluster aviation experience, not that it matters really, is 4400 hours (1200 hrs. combat) in Army R/W aircraft, part 135, and part 121 in MD80 and 737 aircraft. Good or bad, that is where I am from.

Thanks. Again, not intending to be critical, just curious of where you were coming from.

[Randy Haskin]

Anyone who thinks a pilot is going to ride it in to save someone on the ground is full of it, they are trying to save their own behind first and anyone who happens to be with them.

Very little if anything in human pursuits is absolute, look up "William E. Dyess" before spouting on this topic

As Dyess was trying to land in a field when he crashed (e.g. still trying to save his own pick butt), it doesn't fall into the category of "gallantly riding it in to avoid civilian casualties".

[Randy Haskin]

Here's a scoop from the back seater.

https://youtu.be/Ftcn3NwAZCI?si=j0SJOT9SlpgwRHRs

Key points:
- 170 knots and 700' Agl with an engine rolling back
- In-flight restart of the engine requires 20 seconds after complete shut-down, and a minimum airspeed of 325 knots
-- "The last engine start attempt should be made at an altitude of not less than 9000'"
- Minimum decision altitude for controlled ejection vs dead-stick landing is "not less than 6500' agl"
- Flameout landing requires a minimum airspeed of 250 knots.

[Lynn Allen]

Anyone who thinks a pilot is going to ride it in to save someone on the ground is full of it, they are trying to save their own behind first and anyone who happens to be with them. Scully did not land in the hudson to save everyone on the flight, he was saving his own butt and everyone else was along for the ride, no matter the outcome. That said, at airshows where the military performs, included in the briefing are preferred punch out areas. In the T-6, Carl and I talked it over a number of times and unless the plane was on fire, or missing pieces, we would ride it down to a forced landing. In all the years I have been going to and taking part in airshows, I have seen only 1 bailout, and that was the super Corsair at the Phx 500, Kevin did not point the plane away, when Bob Hoover said to bail out, he did not wait, in that case the plane was pointed into a mostly open area and did impact on the GM proving grounds.

Great point Matt as Mr. Hoover told Kevin to bail out several times before he actually did. I was there and took a lot of pictures while it was going down.

[Xray]

Anyone who thinks a pilot is going to ride it in to save someone on the ground is full of it, they are trying to save their own behind first and anyone who happens to be with them.

Very little if anything in human pursuits is absolute, look up "William E. Dyess" before spouting on this topic

As Dyess was trying to land in a field when he crashed (e.g. still trying to save his own pick butt), it doesn't fall into the category of "gallantly riding it in to avoid civilian casualties".

Not sure of your point here, if any, and sure don't know what a pick butt is.

It is well documented and accepted that he could have bailed and saved himself if his own pick butt was his only consideration. He chose to stay with it to guide it away from civilians on the ground. He succeeded and it cost him his life, have no idea why you are being so snippy and condescending over heroic actions like this, other than it puts a cramp on your [false] projection that pilots never, ever stay with an aircraft to avoid killing others on the ground.


Dyess History

The base is named after Lt. Col. William Edwin Dyess, a native of Albany, Texas, who was captured by the Japanese on Bataan in April 1942. Dyess escaped in April 1943 and fought with guerilla forces on Mindanao until evacuated by submarine in July 1943. During retraining in the United States, his P-38 Lightning caught fire in flight on December 23, 1943 near Burbank, Calif. He refused to bail out over a populated area and died in the crash of his P-38 in a vacant lot.
https://www.dyess.af.mil/Fact-Sheets/Di ... s-history/

[RyanShort1]

It is well documented and accepted that he could have bailed and saved himself if his own pick butt was his only consideration. He chose to stay with it to guide it away from civilians on the ground. He succeeded and it cost him his life, have no idea why you are being so snippy and condescending over heroic actions like this, other than it puts a cramp on your [false] projection that pilots never, ever stay with an aircraft to avoid killing others on the ground.

Just because you don't bail out doesn't mean you are being heroic with regard to civilians. Trying to bring a disabled aircraft to a safe landing is a very, very strong urge for experienced pilots. In the back of your mind, you know that if you "save" the plane, you think you are more likely to save yourself and maybe those on the ground, but it's your own hide that is first in line. I've put a plane with a seized engine in a field before, and your focus is entirely on flying the plane to the point of least lethal impact. It doesn't add to these men's heroism to invoke simple, unprovable conjecture that they were thinking first of civilians, nor does it detract from their humanity to accept that they were engaging in a logical effort to survive.

The reality is that the faster, heavier, hotter the plane, the less likely it is that riding it in will save anyone, including the pilot... unless you have a runway of sufficient length, adequate gliding distance, and control of the aircraft.

[p51buff]

The whole, "ride it down to avoid the women and kids" shtick is romantic nonsense.

Among others, Ning, Mei-ling, and Ian Chen would like to tell you a story about Jim Wright. https://offbeatoregon.com/1207sp-heroic ... plane.html

[marine air]

Excellent article about Jim Wright and the Hughes H-1 replica. I haven't read the final NTSB report. but would like to add from my memory. First of all, Jimmy Leeward flying his P-51 there to fly chase and help out isn't a surprise. He really was , maybe the nicest guy in sport aviation.
The airplane had an ultrarare Pratt & Whitney R-1535 double row Wasp. Who knows what those sound like in the air? With only a couple of those engines in existence, how were they able to rebuild it and maintain it? Where did they find a propellor to go with the design? NO doubt Hughes had the prop designed and custom built for the airplane.
I remember at the time that Art Vance, JR. crashed the POF's Hellcat scud running it was incredulous that a person of his extreme ability and aviation career could go down that way. A friend, now a retired Major General of the USAF, told me he almost went down scud running. He had a small civilian plane and was so hyper focused on getting home that he ignored the VFR rules. He continued on, getting lower and lower. Eventually he said he realized he was following cars on the interstate just above their roofs and below the trees. He said it wasn't the first time but it was his last.
Mr. Wright was well liked and he may or may not have had engine or prop problems.

Last edited by marine air on Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.