Dallas air show crash debrief

[p51buff]

In general, it's common to have an Airboss and an Assistant Airboss on the platform. It's a good way to handle different frequencies, and spot developing problems.

It also reduces the distractions -- people coming to the platform talk to the Assistant Airboss first.

Just to add to Dave's post:

Years ago I started working up in the Air Boss Tower at Sun n' Fun both because I was thinking about becoming an Air Boss (I'm a 787 pilot by trade), and as a liaison to Air Ops to take the load off the Air Boss. While I decided not to pursue becoming an Air Boss (too many other things I want to do first before I die) I worked the position for several years before burning out and handing it off to my replacement, although I was back up there a couple times this year because he had a schedule conflict. Good times.

At SnF it's not uncommon to have the Boss and maybe an assistant or two, KLAL Airport liaison, Crash/Rescue liaison, FAA or two, Air Ops liaison (me), and during their acts a Military or Warbird liaison. I'm the first to get booted to the stairway when it gets too crowded.

IMHO, this is a pretty good writeup about being "Behind the Rope Line" at a major airshow. https://www.kitplanes.com/behind-the-rope-line/

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[Xray]

In general, it's common to have an Airboss and an Assistant Airboss on the platform. It's a good way to handle different frequencies, and spot developing problems.

It also reduces the distractions -- people coming to the platform talk to the Assistant Airboss first.

Just to add to Dave's post:

Years ago I started working up in the Air Boss Tower at Sun n' Fun both because I was thinking about becoming an Air Boss (I'm a 787 pilot by trade), and as a liaison to Air Ops to take the load off the Air Boss. While I decided not to pursue becoming an Air Boss (too many other things I want to do first before I die) I worked the position for several years before burning out and handing it off to my replacement, although I was back up there a couple times this year because he had a schedule conflict. Good times.

At SnF it's not uncommon to have the Boss and maybe an assistant or two, KLAL Airport liaison, Crash/Rescue liaison, FAA or two, Air Ops liaison (me), and during their acts a Military or Warbird liaison. I'm the first to get booted to the stairway when it gets too crowded.

IMHO, this is a pretty good writeup about being "Behind the Rope Line" at a major airshow. https://www.kitplanes.com/behind-the-rope-line/

That sign is funny.
To clarify, there is only 1 man in radio contact with performing aircraft, and 1 frequency used, correct ?

[p51buff]

That sign is funny.
To clarify, there is only 1 man in radio contact with performing aircraft, and 1 frequency used, correct ?

No offense, but I'm not going to comment further on procedures on a public forum. I'm just a guest up there and won't violate the trust they've put in me. But if an Air Boss wants to chime in they can.

Last edited by p51buff on Wed May 01, 2024 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Xray]

No offense, but I'm not going to comment further on procedures on a public forum. I'm just a guest up there and won't violate the trust they've put in me. But if an Air Boss wants to chime in they can.

Absolutely.
I know the answer but have seen speculation and implications otherwise, a very important point that I'd like to see put to rest, some day.

[p51buff]

Ill considered post having nothing to do with my conversation with Xray deleted by me.

[Dave Hadfield]

There is a prime frequency for the show, used by Air Boss and performers.

Then there is a secondary freq in case the first one gets jammed by a stuck mic or whatever. This one is often used to ask tech questions when you don't want to distract the main act that's in the air. "Air Boss, Merlin Flight, about to start engines. Are we on-sched?"

The secondary may also be used if there's a side problem such as an aircraft in flight working through a emergency/abnormal checklist. Air Boss may elect to move the problem aircraft to a safe holding area, use the Assistant for comms on the secondary freq, and continue with the show using the prime freq -- other acts may be in the air.

Also the Air Boss' team are in touch with ATC for airspace clearances etc by phone and by VHF. And the ground folks working the Ramp, and Security, and CFR, usually by walkie-talkies.

Lots of radios in use.

[Xray]

Interesting, thanks Dave.
Have extensively monitored airshow freqs for years, never heard a secondary but of course might have been potentially active but I just didn't hear it or have the freq, or it wasn't used.
Do they actually call it "Air Boss secondary" or maybe its a discrete airfield freq assigned to them for the show ? Almost always, even if you don't have a particular freq you'll hear it referred to on active channels. I get guys coming up to me all the time asking what freq I have with all the chatter, they just have the tower freqs and not Airboss and know they are missing out listening to mine. They don't know that the tower pretty much goes silent when the airspace is handed over to the Airboss.

Most of the shows I attend have been using the same boss freq for years and years so I typically have no need to search around much for others.

[67N20]

I've read thru a lot of the NTSA Docket that was released on 3-8 of this year.

In the interview of the "mini" air boss, he (Darrel Hufstetler) stated he had no duties at the Dallas Air Show, he was strictly as an observer and did not communicate with any aircraft.

Linky: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=106276

Airboss interviews in Docket Item 14, "Mini" boss starts Page 142.

Last edited by 67N20 on Fri May 03, 2024 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Xray]

File looks to be a location on your computer and not a valid link

[67N20]

File looks to be a location on your computer and not a valid link

Link changed.

[Xray]

File looks to be a location on your computer and not a valid link

Link changed.

Wow extensive info, thanks for posting

[RyanShort1]

Here's a hint.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/communi ... st-3339510

That may get me in trouble with people I'm not trying to get in trouble with, but in my mind, checks and balances are useless if they don't work.

I tried to make that clear in this post: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/communi ... st-3339484

There is a possibility that I was wrong about it being an FAA guy on the stand... but I'd be surprised if they didn't have the ability to talk because I've been at other shows where they called a performance because of something like crossing an established line.

[Xray]

He stated there were only 2 on the platform, him and an observer.
FAA guy was in shouting distance.
So he was the only 1 with the ability to transmit.
Also said he used texts for comms with aircraft [I assume on the ground, didn't make that clear], which surprised me and not sure if that is his style, or routine for airbosses for non critical comms.

I'm about half was through it, also surprised how deferential and unknowledgeable the NTSB people were, most who come out and say "I don't know anything, I am here to be educated by you", you would think that they'd have people on staff more familiar with airshow procedures. Of course, might have been some "good cop/bad cop" routine where they try to take him off his guard a bit and put him at ease, and they know more than they let on. Sure doesn't seem that way though, they are deferential and even fawning at times. Russ seemed to eat it up, stating numerous times how uniquely qualified and skillful he was.

Russel seems haughty and over confident, maybe good qualities for an airbosss I don't know, but his habit of saying "right ?" after just about every point he makes is highly annoying, must have been even worse to listen to it in real time ,, But people who do this don't even realize they do it so much, ingrained force of habit.

[RyanShort1]

He stated there were only 2 on the platform, him and an observer.
FAA guy was in shouting distance.
So he was the only 1 with the ability to transmit.
Also said he used texts for comms with aircraft [I assume on the ground, didn't make that clear], which surprised me and not sure if that is his style, or routine for airbosses for non critical comms.

I'm about half was through it, also surprised how deferential and unknowledgeable the NTSB people were, most who come out and say "I don't know anything, I am here to be educated by you", you would think that they'd have people on staff more familiar with airshow procedures. Of course, might have been some "good cop/bad cop" routine where they try to take him off his guard a bit and put him at ease, and they know more than they let on. Sure doesn't seem that way though, they are deferential and even fawning at times. Russ seemed to eat it up, stating numerous times how uniquely qualified and skillful he was.

Russel seems haughty and over confident, maybe good qualities for an airbosss I don't know, but his habit of saying "right ?" after just about every point he makes is highly annoying, must have been even worse to listen to it in real time ,, But people who do this don't even realize they do it so much, ingrained force of habit.

I'm still not sure that everything is documented "as it was." You've got to keep in mind that just like have different stories on what color the Japanese aircraft were at Pearl Harbor, in the immediate aftermath of such a horrific collision, some things may be a little foggy. I was personally literally in talking distance from the stand, taking photos at show center as you can see in some of the photos I've posted, but I can't prove a few things that I think happened.
My personal opinion is that he is / was more skilled than a lot of people online have been willing to give him credit for. The previous year he successfully choreographed the same airshow with significantly more aircraft and I was right underneath shooting on the side of the runway with three other photographers and never felt unsafe. If anything, I suspect
the accident comes down to swiss cheese and presumption, with some unspoken pressure to get the show tighter because of their being less aircraft present, and no practice on Friday because of weather. In my opinion, to the degree that he and others bear blame, it's more likely because of everything getting too routine with too much complacency in multiple corners vs inexperience and ineptitude on any one's shoulders specifically.

[Xray]

He stated there were only 2 on the platform, him and an observer.
FAA guy was in shouting distance.
So he was the only 1 with the ability to transmit.
Also said he used texts for comms with aircraft [I assume on the ground, didn't make that clear], which surprised me and not sure if that is his style, or routine for airbosses for non critical comms.

I'm about half was through it, also surprised how deferential and unknowledgeable the NTSB people were, most who come out and say "I don't know anything, I am here to be educated by you", you would think that they'd have people on staff more familiar with airshow procedures. Of course, might have been some "good cop/bad cop" routine where they try to take him off his guard a bit and put him at ease, and they know more than they let on. Sure doesn't seem that way though, they are deferential and even fawning at times. Russ seemed to eat it up, stating numerous times how uniquely qualified and skillful he was.

Russel seems haughty and over confident, maybe good qualities for an airbosss I don't know, but his habit of saying "right ?" after just about every point he makes is highly annoying, must have been even worse to listen to it in real time ,, But people who do this don't even realize they do it so much, ingrained force of habit.

I'm still not sure that everything is documented "as it was." You've got to keep in mind that just like have different stories on what color the Japanese aircraft were at Pearl Harbor, in the immediate aftermath of such a horrific collision, some things may be a little foggy. I was personally literally in talking distance from the stand, taking photos at show center as you can see in some of the photos I've posted, but I can't prove a few things that I think happened.
My personal opinion is that he is / was more skilled than a lot of people online have been willing to give him credit for. The previous year he successfully choreographed the same airshow with significantly more aircraft and I was right underneath shooting on the side of the runway with three other photographers and never felt unsafe. If anything, I suspect
the accident comes down to swiss cheese and presumption, with some unspoken pressure to get the show tighter because of their being less aircraft present, and no practice on Friday because of weather. In my opinion, to the degree that he and others bear blame, it's more likely because of everything getting too routine with too much complacency in multiple corners vs inexperience and ineptitude on any one's shoulders specifically.

Fair points Ryan, and you definitely have a, lets say, more well placed perspective than most.
I think there can be little doubt that Russ was skilled at what he does [did], and probably the cream of the crop in that little niche that is probably counted in the dozens, not 100's, of guys. Really doesn't matter what his personality is so long as he gets the job done, which he did for many shows and many years.

We all know, unplanned things can happen to the best of them in any field, all we can hope for is to have some lessons learned, and those of course are in the process of being ironed out.