Churchill's B-17 ...

[Mark Allen M]

Lockheed/Vega B-17G-90-VE Fortress 44-8990 (MSN 17-8390) Accepted by USAAF at Lockheed Field, Burbank, CA Feb45. Modified as cargo/transport aircraft, designated CB-17G. Converted as staff transport, designated VB-17G. 1100th Air Missions Group, Bolling Field, Washington, DC. VIP transport, loaned by President Truman to Winston Churchill during Churchill's 1946 visit to USA. US Navy 1946. Returned to USAF. 1100th Air Missions Group, Bolling AFB, Washington, DC. Damaged taxying at Bolling AFB 12Aug52. Damaged taxying at Peterson AFB, Colorado Springs, CO 22Sep54. 3040th Aircraft Storage Depot, Davis-Monthan AFB, Tucson, AZ 19Jul55. Reclaimed 6Apr59. Registered 31Jul59 as N3678G to ML Alison/Aero Enterprises Inc, Elkhart, IN. Clero Enterprises 9Jan59. Multiple Management Corporation, Long Beach, CA 7Nov60. Converted as fire tanker #15C. Registration cancelled 23Sep70. Crashed into Mount Lincoln, Stillwater Mountains fighting a fire 24 miles east of Fallon, NV and destroyed by fire 11Oct62. (Baugher)

[JohnB]

You would have thought that they would have given him something nicer than a B-17...a C-54 or a VC-47.

Remember at that time Churchill was a private citizen, being turned out of office in July '45, before V-J day.
So, perhaps Truman didn't want to appear too generous to a private citizen.
Or maybe, the Boeing was the only VIP aircraft available.
Also, and this is just a theory: Attlee, the new UK prime minister, was very left wing, (pretty much a democratic socialist by definition, he led the movement to bring a large part of UK industry under state ownership), so maybe as a democrat,Truman didn't want to appear to be too close to the conservative Churchill.
The 1946 trip is when Churchill gave the speech that coined the phrase "Iron Curtain", however he and Truman travelled to Fulton, Missouri not by air, but in FDR's old private armored railcar.
It is said that the two grew close on that trip (Churchill lost $200 to Truman and his staff during a late might poker game), becoming friends. Those ties which be helpful once Churchill regained power in late 1951.

[mike furline]

[quemerford]

Attlee, the new UK prime minister, was very left wing, (pretty much a democratic socialist by definition, he led the movement to bring a large part of UK industry under state ownership).

I don't think many in the UK would consider him 'very left wing'. His nationalisation initiative focussed on key industries and public services. He supported NATO; he supported the deployment of UK forces in Korea. He also was a key element in the return of colonial territories to their rightful populations.

Nowadays he'd be seen as a progressive. If Truman did ever consider Attlee 'very left wing', I'd have thought he'd want to keep Churchill close. I'm sure the B-17 was an expedient move and wouldn't have left any negative impression either way. It's also quite possible that Churchill had demanded no special treatment.

[JohnB]

He was certainly to the left of Churchill, and with his nationalization efforts, to the left of Truman.

I agree, many of his other programs sounds very low key to modern ears, and were certainly welcomed in the UK, which seemed to have class distinctions (what I mean is the poor were very poor with not much of a government "safety net") inherited from the time of the industrial revolution and not far removed from Dickens writings!

If he supported NATO, it was a pragmatic move based on the realization the UK could not stand alone and did not have the "bomb" which everyone assumed the Soviets would have in short order.
Remember too, Eastern Europe and China were falling into the Soviet sphere, so being a NATO supporter was a matter of simple survival as opposed to signaling any moderate political tendencies.
Also, I'm guessing he had to look reasonably moderate if he expected to receive any loans (the approx.$4 billion Anglo American loan agreement of 1946) or aide ($2.7 billion from the Marshall Plan) from the U.S.

[Mark Sampson]

It's also probable that a passenger-converted B-17 would be just as comfortable as a C-47 or C-54.
During the war, Churchill traveled a great deal in a B-24 (C-87?) and an Avro York, as well as a Boeing 314 Clipper (on which flight he famously took the controls for a while).

[JohnB]

Having flown in B-17 and few C-47s, I would have to think the Douglas would be more comfortable... even if the B-17 had a really nice interior.

During the war, Churchill had a Lend lease Liberator, and later a Skymaster assigned. The latter was a state of the art airliner, so a repurposed bomber could have been seen as a comedown.

[Archer]

The view from those large side windows would be pretty good and I don't think any of the other types mentioned could match that
I can see curtains on the side windows, so no doubt the interior has been spruced up compared to a bomber/trainer variant.

[lucky52]

Was Attlee the PM responsible for selling the Rolls Royce Nene jet engines to Russia in 1947/1948 or was that done behind his back?

[quemerford]

Was Attlee the PM responsible for selling the Rolls Royce Nene jet engines to Russia in 1947/1948 or was that done behind his back?

It was done under his watch. Not one of the British government's finest moments.

[Chris Brame]

Two small shots of 44-8990 as tanker N3678G, which was apparently mis-marked N3578G:

[Chris Brame]

Thread from the Wreckchasing forum about the 1962 crash:
https://wreckchasing.websitetoolbox.com ... 7?trail=15

One link is dead but here's the archived page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160827011 ... rolet.html

In its Tanker 15 colors three months before the crash:
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing- ... 270eb4965c

[quemerford]

So were N3678G and "N3578G" two different aircraft? there are tow shots in the thread at different points in the aircraft's life, both showing "N3578G"....

[aerovin]

They are the same aircraft. The owner inexplicably painted the wrong number on his airplane.

The registration file for N3678G shows what the FAA assigned, and the registration certificate was N3678G. Later maintenance records show that they were filled out as N3578G (as it was painted on the airplane) but this is crossed out by hand and replaced with N3678G.

[aerovin]

I had the pleasure of corresponding with Col. Richard E. Fitzhugh (USAF, ret.) in 1993 about his time with 44-8990, and think it worth quoting part of the information he provided:

"This B-17 was the plane in which I flew Winston Churchill, his wife and daughter in Feb.-Mar 1946 during his visit to the U.S. where gave his famous "Iron Curtain" speech. The plane was named "Mary Winn II" by M/Gen. Frederick L. Anderson in honor of his young daughter who was cripped by polio. The B-17 was provided to Gen. Anderson for his numerous flights throughout the U.S. while engaged in speaking and coordination events concerning a separate Air Force. I was his pilot during this 1945-47 period. Major General F.L. Anderson had recently returned from England where he served as USSTAF Dep. Commander for Operations and was DCS/Personnel, HQS, USAAF in 1945-47."

Col. Fitzhugh also noted:

"There is another item concerning a B-17 that may interest you. B-17 42-32101, El Lobo II. I flew El Lobo II on approximately 16 combat missions during July-Oct. 1944. Starting in the spring of 1944, El Lobo II completed over 100 missions before war's end."

And, from the aircraft record, 44-8990 was operated as a CB-17G beginning in March 1946 and at that time was assigned to Bolling Field with the 1st Base Unit for administrative transport. In 1949 it was redesignated as a VB-17G and was in service through 1956 when placed in storage at Davis Monthan. It was sold via surplus sale for $5110.99 on July 31, 1959, to M.L. Alson of Elkhart, Indiana, who was most likely a principal owner of Aero Enterprises, to whom it was sold on September 1, 1959. It was then sold on November 6, 1960, to Multiple Management Corp. of Long Beach, CA. That company was owned by James Routh.

I don't have a record of my contact with Routh, but I think I spoke to him in the early 1990s and he related that was absolutely devastated when N3678G crashed and killed the two pilots who were his friends as well as his employees. I think Multiple Management folded up quickly after the accident.