Ferrying P-51’s to Hawaii

[marine air]

Sounds like a 'ferry tale." supposedly the longest stretch of water anywhere without any land is Hawaii to the West Coast. FLying west the winds would be 30 to 160 knots on the nose and they can be unpredictable. Just no way they would routinely risk the aircraft and personnel. He probably ferried the aircraft to the west coast and then they were shipped to Hawaii. He may have ferried other aircraft with more safety and range.

[JohnB]

If anyone is a P-51 expert, ot might be interesting to know if it was theoretically possible.

-How many drop tanks can 51 carry?
-What size of drop tanks?
-Total gallons of useable fuel
-Max TO weight? (Might be less than the weight of all tanks with full fuel).

-Distance
-Long range cruise speed
-Flight time estimate
-Best range fuel consumption gph
-Safety margin for winds, possible diversion.

So do you have enough fuel to reach Hawaii with decent reserves?
Another consideration might be do you have enough coolant?

To save weight, I suppose one could trim combat equipment...probably guns and obviously ammo.
Any other feasible weight saving measures to help fuel burn?

[junkman9096]

Ferry Range for P-51 Mustang.
Internal fuel capacity for the P-51A was 180 US gal. The P-51 B/C/D models carried 269 US gal.
P-51A - 800 miles
P-51B/C - 1,200 miles
P-51D - 1,190 miles
NB: SOP combat radius for the P-51D was 450 miles at 10,000ft, or 375 miles at 25,000ft. Conditions take into account those stated above.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=148000

I think at best any Mustang is going to be 1000 miles (+) short of making the West Coast to Hawaii hop. Also recall that at the beginning of the Korean War, when they desperately needed F-51s in theater, they cocooned them and shipped them on escort carriers and didn't fly them up across the Pacific via Alaska.

Bar story.

[menards]

Ferry Range for P-51 Mustang.
Internal fuel capacity for the P-51A was 180 US gal. The P-51 B/C/D models carried 269 US gal.
P-51A - 800 miles
P-51B/C - 1,200 miles
P-51D - 1,190 miles
NB: SOP combat radius for the P-51D was 450 miles at 10,000ft, or 375 miles at 25,000ft. Conditions take into account those stated above.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=148000

I think at best any Mustang is going to be 1000 miles (+) short of making the West Coast to Hawaii hop. Also recall that at the beginning of the Korean War, when they desperately needed F-51s in theater, they cocooned them and shipped them on escort carriers and didn't fly them up across the Pacific via Alaska.

Bar story.

A P-51 Mustang with 150 US gal drop tanks had a maximum ferry range of 2,740 miles. It's *possible*. When an entire squadron needs to be mobiliized, sure send them on a boat. But what about when only a few need to be moved?

There was always an "acceptable loss" ratio. There has to be records of exactly what was moved from oakland to hickham. Literally had planes going back and forth round the clock.

[junkman9096]

Yeah...I wouldn't want to be included in the "acceptable loss" category. The AOPA fact sheet on the P-51 offers max range (with drop tanks) of 1650 miles. Distance between SFO and Honolulu is 2398 miles. You mention the 150 gal drop tanks but make no mention of the drag of said tanks (reduce range and add drag) nor the fact that the flight would be against the prevailing headwinds (reduce range and add drag). Not mentioned in the so far discussion was the physical toll on a pilot flying at economical cruise speed 255mph (per the AOPA) and knowing he would be a couple of broken spark plugs away from going down. Both physics and physiology (and psychology) play against your contention.

Bar Story

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... 1d-mustang

[quemerford]

Aside from the daftness of it, the elephant in the room is the total lack of evidence.

And as someone far more eloquent put it, "A lack of evidence is not evidence".

[86583]

Synonyms of ferry
transitive verb
1
a
: to carry by boat over a body of water
b
: to cross by a ferry
2
a
: to convey (as by aircraft or motor vehicle) from one place to another : TRANSPORT
b
: to fly (an airplane) from the factory or other shipping point to a designated delivery point or from one base to another
intransitive verb
: to cross water in a boat


maybe he meant by boat... not fly

[quemerford]

The aviation use of 'ferry' only ever refers to transit by air.

[86583]

I’m pretty sure I already know the answer to this, but a friend of a friend of mine (since passed) used to tell him that he ferried some P-51’s from the mainland to Hawaii, but I just can’t see it. Does anyone here know if this was ever done? I can only see them getting there as either deck cargo or ferried on a flat top.

I don't see anywhere in this statement that it's in an aviation context only.. just that "he ferried some P51's from the mainland to hawaii"

I think everyone here has alluded to the fact it's not possible to fly them there so either call the guy a liar or consider the alternative

[Mark Allen M]

I’m not going to believe the gent was lying. He, or the OP of this thread, used “ferry” more generally in their wording. Therefore I’m going to believe ferry meant by boat.

And this makes the most sense to me. Too many logistical issues to consider any other way.

[quemerford]

I don't see anywhere in this statement that it's in an aviation context only. Just that "he ferried some P-51s from the mainland to Hawaii"

I think everyone here has alluded to the fact it's not possible to fly them there so either call the guy a liar or consider the alternative.

Here in a nutshell is the problem. He's either right or he's a liar. NO. It's possible that people can be mistaken, or just recollect things at a later date with the skewing of time on memory. It doesn't make you a liar though the alarmists would love to start a fight over it.

The problem with the "it's black or white" argument is that it doesn't allow for any sensible consideration of fact. Or consideration for the person recounting the story.

[86583]

I’m not going to believe the gent was lying. He, or the OP of this thread, used “ferry” more generally in their wording. Therefore I’m going to believe ferry meant by boat.

And this makes the most sense to me. Too many logistical issues to consider any other way.

exactly Mark... and then it was assumed that the use of the term "ferried" meant that they were flown...

[JohnB]

The OP, who knew the guy, and was party to their conversation, put the statement in an aviation context.

If he thought the guy was talking about Navy (or merchant marine) service, he wouldn't have mentioned it here, an aviation forum.

In other words, the guy who said he "ferried" Mustangs obviously gave the OP no reason to think he was a ship crewman.

[Mark Allen M]

OP: “but a friend of a friend of mine (since passed) used to tell him that he ferried some P-51’s from the mainland to Hawaii.”

Doesn’t sound like OP knew the guy, nor was party to their conversation.

[Dan Jones]

Holy cow, you guys…

I didn’t know the guy, he was a buddy of a friend of mine. He was also, near as I can tell, largely a bullsh-t artist. What he told my friend was that he was involved in ferrying (as in FLY, as in FERRY COMMAND, as in FLEW THE AIRPLANE FROM A TO B BECAUSE IT WAS AT A BUT NEEDED AT B) from the mainland (I’m assuming California) to Hawaii. I figure it’s nonsense because last year I FERRIED a C130 from California to Hilo, Hawaii and it was about 2750 miles as I recall, and my info says a P-51 with FERRY tanks has an absolute range of about 2080 miles until it becomes a glider (re Bill Gunston, “Allied Fighters of World War II”).

Feel free to say what you think. He’s dead and I think most of his stories were just that - stories, I was just wondering if anyone could corroborate it.