Actor Cliff Robertson

[Ontario-Warbird]

So Mr. Greenwood I hear you do a acro display in TE308? Is this true and will you be performing this routine at Thunder?

I look forward to seeing your Spit, I haven't seen it since the early 70's when it was in Mr. Plumb's hands in Windsor.

Cheers Dave C

Last edited by Ontario-Warbird on Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

[k5083]

Are you sure about Jerry flying a Spitfire solo act in 1987 at Oskosh? Could it have been there earlier, or at another show? I remember Bud Granley with his usual expert flying about that time at Ohskosh, and also the excellent show by Elliot Cross in Rayborn Thompson's Spit last year. I only wish it had flow in the Warbird show with the other fighters, in addition to the one acro flight. I met Cliff at the Carefree,Az. reunion and he seemed like a nice down to earth guy. He does a lot of soaring.

Yes, Bill; no question. I still have my pics, and you can tell from the background that it is Oshkosh. Of course you would have to take my word on the year, but that was the only year I got to OSH between 1982 and 2001, and I didn't have the gear to take these pics in the earlier dates, so I'm dead sure.

There were four Spits that year, MK923, TE308, and David Price's NH749 and MA793. MK923 never appeared with the others, either on the field or in the air. It was just rolled out for Jerry's routine and IIRC he only did it once, and possibly not during the warbird feature show.

August

[Bill Greenwood]

To Dave C. My Spitfire acro is not in the same class as Ray Hanna or Bud Granley or Elliot Cross. I don't do any vertical manuevers down low. The man who taught me to fly the Spit, Earl Ketchen, was lost a month after my 1st solo in vertical acro at low level, as have been many other Warbird pilots. My normal routine is low level high speed passes, a photo pass, a roll both ways and tight turns to show off the beautiful wing and the turning ability. People seem to enjoy it, but will be impressed by the plane rather than the pilot. I do loops, but only way high. I have spun the Spit, and it recovers promptly, but these are fighters not Cubs, and I'd hate to be forced to recover at pattern altitude. Did you know the 51 manual says no spins below 10,000'! My acro permit needs renewal since May, and there are no Ace people anywhere near Co., so I have to go elsewhere. I hope to have the Spit at Thunder, we are working hard to replace some scarce bolts and fittings. Bill G

[Bill Greenwood]

To K 5083, I think you are correct, I do remember Jerry flying an act in the Spit at Osh, but am not sure of the year. It was somewhat slower and very tight and in close, sort of floating compared to many other shows. My first Spitfire flight was dual with Jerry from the back cockpit of TE.308, N308WK, as a demo flight. He made a nice landing on the 4000' runway at Carefree, Az. Solo he also did a pass with a beautiful climbing roll. It is unfortunate that the way the Warbird shows are run at OSH, they don't accomodate solo acts, even for rare or special planes. They don't even allow rolls in fly bys, it is mostly dominated by the formation groups, and the show is not up to what is done other places. Last year the Me109 came all the way from CA to sit on the ground. You have to got in the acro portion of the show to fly a solo act as Howard Pardue does. Probably the best act I have ever done was for the EAA regional show at scenic Longmont, Co. sadly now moved to a big airport with a tower, a barren environment and under a TCA. I spoke to the people that run the regionals in Az.(which used to have Warbirds) and Texas and the made it clear they weren't interested in fighters. The Texas one moved from beautiful New Braunfels with good attendance, out to desolate Hondo where last year there seemed to be less people than even planes, and almost no Warbirds. Bill G.

[D Fisher]

Here's a picture of MK923 shortly after its arrival in the US.



Doug

[k5083]

Bill, yes that was Jerry's style, he didn't wrench the airplane around much but flew those nice graceful tracks. It was very much about displaying the airplane rather than stunt flying. I recall at Flying Legends once at Duxford I watched a guy do a routine in TFC's Mk.XIV that was full of zoom climbs and had a low pass with 6 or 7 continuous aileron rolls. Admittedly it left me impressed with what those clipped Griffon birds can do but it was not really a thing of beauty like Jerry's act.

I hear what you're saying about OSH; it would be nice to see more acro in the warbird shows, and I remember a few pilots (Sue Parish for one) would bend the rules by rolling 270 degrees right to turn left after the flypast rather than 90 degrees left. Still, I liked that the warbird solo acts were sprinkled through the evening airshows; it gave me a reason to stick around each evening. Thanks to Pardue, Sanders, the late Joe Frasca, and others, we got to see just about all of the active fighter types being flown like fighters at one time or another.

I think the most frustrating warbird thing I ever saw (or didn't see) at OSH was in 2001 when the two red tailed P-51Bs were there and they were supposed to fly together, not during the warbird show, but at the start of one of the evening airshows later in the week. But because there were (predictably) so many departures to clear out that day, they had to trim back the evening show and the formation flight never happened. So I agree with you that I wish they would allow for more featured things like that on warbird day.

But, the warbirds at OSH still get treated well in comparison to the antiques, which have basically disappeared from the flying displays.

August

[Bill Greenwood]

To K5083 A highlight one year was a half dozen Jennys, didn't they fly together, and of course the B17s last year. For me flying in the show, the best years was when we (fighters) were close escorts for the big bombers, and of course when we had a number of Spits and the Hurricane as a flight, but that is rare. Usually someone is appointed leader and all we do is follow in line behind him in trail. I have led at Sun n Fun, but never at Osh. It's the same thing each year. There's no opportunity for me to do any rolls or tight turns in the Spitfire. Speedwise Spits fit in best with the P-51s or right behind the 51s. If you are behind a Skyraider you've got to lag back or turn wide to avoid the nasty wake turbulence. If you are behind something slower(P40, FM2, etc.) you have to slow to keep from overrunning. P47 leaves considerable prop wash also. it seems dangerous and is certainly rough. One act I try to see is the antique Parade of Flight. The guys running the show put in a lot of work, but they aren't too interested in other's input. Lip service is given to debriefing, but little seems to be learned from it.I really don't like the opposite direction passes(north) while planes are tasking off south

[Warbirdnerd]

To K5083 A highlight one year was a half dozen Jennys, didn't they fly together, and of course the B17s last year. For me flying in the show, the best years was when we (fighters) were close escorts for the big bombers, and of course when we had a number of Spits and the Hurricane as a flight, but that is rare.

That was one of my favorite years too:

[k5083]

Thanks for the participant's-eye perspective, Bill. From the ground I have always wondered what that flyby circuit must be like.

I like the Parade of Flight too, but it is always so much less than what it could be given the incredible antiques that are on the field. I guess smaller fly-ins are just a better venue to see those beauties.

All gripes aside, there is nothing like OSH and no event I would rather go to. Every year they have something you never thought you'd see.

P.S. Like Dave C., I'm from the Windsor area and saw TE308 often in the Don Plumb days, and I appreciate the care you take of the bird.

August