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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:45 am 
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Another episode of "ask the experts"!

After responding to Albert Stix's question about turret part identification and discovering that one of the turret shells appears to be from a B-52 tail turret...I got to thinking.

Does anybody know if any B-52 tail gunners scored confirmed kills during Vietnam??

Given that the tail turret configuration has changed over time, do the B-52's that are still flying even have a tail gun anymore?

Thanks in advance for your response!

John


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:52 am 
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I am pretty sure the current operational A/C do not have a tail gun. I think the G's used a gun, but they were removed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:56 am 
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If I remember correctly, there were two confirmed kills during the Vietnam War by B-52 tail gunners and I believe they were both Mig 17s.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:33 pm 
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The B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy was credited with shooting down a Mig with its tailgun.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:39 pm 
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Here you go. Both victories occured during LINEBACKER II:

12/18/72
MiG-21
Hanoi
SSgt Samuel O. Turner (gunner)
307th Strat Wing
B-52D-35-BW; 56-676

12/24/72
MiG-21
Hanoi
A1C Albert E. Moore (gunner)
307 Strat Wing
B-52D-55-BO; 55-083

These are the only two victories claimed by BUFs.

Wade

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:41 pm 
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While stationed at Carswell AFB in the 80's, we transferred from D's to H models. The D's had the tail gunner in the back, the H's had 'em in the crew compartment sitting next the the EWO.

According to the NMUSAF:


Quote:
The B-52H has gone through numerous upgrade and service live extension programs and is expected to remain operational well into the next century. The B-52H had a crew of six until 1991 when the gunner position was eliminated and the tail gun deactivated and removed.


Huh, you learn something new everyday. :shock:

regards,

t~


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:47 pm 
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Thanks guys for all your help in answering my questions...what would I do without all of you!!!! :prayer:

John


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 Post subject: B-52 tail gunners
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:55 pm 
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The B-52D had a true tail gunner -- i.e. one who literally rode in the back. The "D" had 4 x .50 cal machine guns.

The B-52G retained the 4 x .50s but the gunner was moved up front and rode upstairs, facing aft, beside the EWO.

The B-52H had a single 6-barrel 20mm Gatling gun. Gunner also rode up front, as per the "G" model.

Looks like there were 5 claims made by B-52 gunners with only two confirmed
"Until B-52s flew against air opposition during the Vietnam War, gunners had few chances to score kills. In fact, gunners claimed a mere five MiG kills with only two confirmed.

Staff Sgt. Samuel Turner became the first B-52 gunner to shoot down enemy aircraft when he hit a MiG-21 during Operation Linebacker II. Airman 1st Class Albert Moore downed the second MiG-21."

The trick the with the Buffs was that their guns, while .50 cal vs the typical 23mm guns of the Migs, could outrange the Migs. The Mig drivers would have to close to effective firing range -- which was reduced due to firing against a target moving away from them. The Buff gunners would be firing against a closing target, which increased the effective firing range for the B-52. Both Mig kills were achieved at distances the Migs probably felt was safely 'out of range'. While this was probably correct for the Migs guns, it wasn't true for the Buffs.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:57 pm 
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Yes, about the time President Bush stood down all Alert crews, the B-52 lost their gunners and tail guns. The BUFs sans guns were known as "bobtail bombers" due to their noticeably "bobbed" tails.

FYI: the "stepping over the side" procedure for gunners up through the Ds was to punch off the turret, leaving a GIANT hole in front of the gunner. The gunner then fell forward into space. My late stepfather earned the DFC for actions during LINEBACKER as a D-model gunner and remembers coming home with a cracked helmet on occasion due to the long moment arm of his position in the tail. A simple "air pocket" became the Jolly Green Giant's baseball bat by the time the shock wave reached the tail.

Crazy times, and men with a giant set of platinum clickers who did good work despite all the odds, there and here at home.

Wade

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 Post subject: Bobtails
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:24 pm 
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What happended to all the BUFF gunners when they did away with the guns?

Even when I was flying back in the 1980s (TAC), there weren't very many enlisted aircrew jobs. All I can think of are gunner, boom operator, and loadmaster. I'm excluding those who fly in the "executive suite" on AWACS :twisted:

I remember the D-model gunners tormenting their G- & H-model bretheren about 'cavorting with the officers and up-front!


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 Post subject: B-52 Gunners
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:02 pm 
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The B-52G used the ASG-15 Defensive Fire Control System, with a hydraulically controlled turret mounting four .50 caliber guns. On the G the gunner sat in an ejection seat, next to the "E-Dub", the Electronic Warfare Officer. If my memory serves me, the azimuth limits are + and - 60 degrees of turret movement, and 40 degrees up, and 50 degrees down, indicating how the aircraft was originally designed as a high altitude bomber. In the 1980s, the gunner also operated the AFSATCOM, the Air Force Satelllite Communications System. This was a state of the art Real Time, Real World Hard Copy "teletype" system allowing for direct satellite links between individual aircraft and NCA, (National Command Authorities).

When the decision was made to have the gunner occupy the forward cockpit, such as on the G and H models, thought was given to compensating for the lack of visual acquisition through the loss of the gunner's aft windows, with a television camera mounted on the tail. It really never worked well, and was subsequently removed. In addition to the search, acquisition and track radars of the DFCS, the gunner had an ALR-46 Warning Receiver that provided threat information from fighters and other threats. The Defensive Team had at their disposal chaff, flares, electronic jamming, defensive maneuvers and close crew coordination that enabled the BUFF to have a fighting chance.

Ironically, the practice ammo we used was as old as WWII vintage, and the guns themselves are identical to WWII era guns. We used electric gun heaters, and either pneumatic or hydraulic gun chargers to charge the guns, (don't recall which right now). But, you could remove the gun, bolt on a charging handle and triggers, and have the same gun in your hands as in WWII, M2 Brownings. On the Buff, there were electric ammo feeders, boosters, that really cranked up the rate of fire available. Firing four .50 calibers guns simultaneously is quite something, and it shook the aircraft pretty well. The DFCS was mostly vacuum tube, with some modifications that were solid state, but it really was 1940s technology. I think we had about 28 different modes of operation, from on to off, and everything in between, such that the gunner would perform a Modes Check, determine the condition of his system, and configure it so that he retained as much capability as possible while cutting out the malfunctioning components.

The gunner could manually move the turret during certain modes and checks, and it would even affect the aircraft such as a rudder might if held in full azimuth. It would slew from one limit to the other incrediby fast.

Anyhow, that's my recollection of having been a B-52G Instructor Defensive Aerial Gunner in SAC in the 1980s. I have my manuals still, so I could post more if anyone is interested.

By the way, if you ever see a former gunner, or an "Honorary Gunner", don't forge to ask him if he has his "bean", but have your wallet ready! There are a few stories about this great tradition, from the last enlisted gunners in the USAF!

The BUFF is a great aircraft, and flying with a dedicated crew was a fantastic experience.

Craig


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:17 am 
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Great info Craig!

Here's an airliners pic of all three variants(Comparison of the tails of the three models of B-52s. B-52H, 61-0032, has a remotely operated 20mm cannon. B-52D, 55-0083, has a tail gunner with four 50 cal guns. B-52G, 58-0176, last in th row has remotely operated 50 cal guns.)

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regards,

t~


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:35 am 
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Great pic!

It's interesting that the H-model never saw combat until after Desert Storm in 1991. As they say, "There was a plan". Compared to your average airliner, for example, the Hs average relatively low time airframes.

After DS, the Gs were chucked aside and went to the boneyard like their freshness date suddenly expired. Wing consolidations gradually came into being and at present only Barksdale and Minot fly BUFs (all Hs).

BTW, B-Dale's 93rd BS became the very first USAF Reserve bomber squadron when the 46th FTS swapped their A-10s for the B-52s. The 46th were training all Reserve and Guard A-10 pilots for years alongside the 47th FS, their "combat" sister squadron.

Barksdale now rightly claims the title, "Home of the BUFF" (two Fs being the more sensitive acronym - one "F" being the Vietnam version) - they're all over the freaking ramp (and Barksdale's ramp ain't small).

Wade,
who has fond memories of Ds and Gs shaking the house located near the departure end of Barksdale's runway 33; that's not to mention the even louder :shock: A-model KC-135s (same engine as the BUF, but with water injection!).

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:43 am 
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I miss the open house shows at Griffiss AFB in NY. It was always a thrill to watch the B-52s take off and perform (perform??? :lol: ) for the crowds.

Every so often at the house one would fly over, very high but the silhouette was unmistakable for a BUFF fan.

Too bad it has been years sense I've seen one fly. :cry:

Tim

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:00 pm 
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What's that hatch open for in the photo of the H-model?


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