Thunder Over MI 2006
Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:04 pm
I dont know what category this fits into, so I'm sticking it in here for now. I want to share my experience with Thunder Over Michigan 2006. I posted this review on fencecheck and people were less that respectful/friendly. I hope I have a better experience here.
On with the "review"
To the organizers (Tom Walsh and Michael Luther) /fans/anyone who may be interested,
I'd like to reply with my thoughts on T.O.M. 2006. I'm not a big-name photography guy. I dont wield thousands of dollars of camera equipment. I'm just a big fan of aviation/airshows/aircraft, who's interested in "supporting the cause." I'm a local, Willow Run is 15min from me. Just an average college student with a love of aviation and history.
Looking at the list of planes, I was set to be in heaven. My dad, who lives out of state (and is also a plane junky) monitored the list every-single-day (as I did) for any changes/additions. We decided a while ago we were going to attend T.O.M. 2006. After last years turn out, we were confident that what the website said was going to be there, was accurate. He came from out of state, only able to attend Saturday's show. In reading the plane list, he saw it was indicated that the B2 was a saturday only. So, it'd make sense that if any other planes were going to be 1 day only, we'd be notified. He mainly came to see the Lancaster fly. It wasnt indicated on the site that it was exclusive to Sunday, that was very unprofessional of the Y.A.M. and the person editing the website. If a plane such as the Lancaster is exclusive to one day, that information needs to be put out there in some form. Obviously someone thought to put it up for the B2. Perhaps a ploy to get people in the gates?
From the word go, my experience was very mixed. I dont want people in this forum to dismiss me as "some dumb spectator." To all the people at the Y.A.M./all high-n-mighty people on this forum, with all do respect, without spectator money -- you dont have an airshow nor will you have a museum. Your spectators and supportis deserve some credit and some respect, not to be dismissed as merely "dumb spectators." To an extent, we are all spectators, so stop being so rude and disrespectful to your SUPPORTERS.
Where do I start?!
My tickets were in my camera bag. Not knowing that tickets would be collected while we were still in the car, I had to get out of the car and get into the trunk to grab my camera bag and my tickets for my family (who traveled in many cars) -- think of the nightmare this was. The whole time, I had T.O.M. staffers griping at me for not having my tickets ready, yet they had no signs indicating that I needed to have them ready. Perhaps next year, if this will be the manner in which tickets are collected, put up some signs. I heard of many people having to deal with this problem.
I understand that crowd control was a real quagmire for the event/security organizers. It was a nightmare for us spectators, I assure you. I enjoyed being so close to the planes as they started up, but trying to navigate the crowd was insane. A walkway that was approx 200' wide being condensed to about 12' was not a good move. And people sitting in this approx 12' walkway made it even harder. Another problem was that the areas of parked planes were cleared FAR longer than they needed to be. For example, both P-47's were over by the "photo pit" and people were still not allowed back near the planes (no planes were coming/going/starting, either). Keeping the crowds pent up longer than they needed to be only added to the nightmare of trying to get around and led to me being late or missing many things I wanted to see.
Another thing that really bothered me was not knowing which planes were static and which would be flying -- and which day they'd be doing anything, for that matter. Many of the aircraft (and gatherings of them) that were highlights for me either never flew or only flew one day. Thankfully I was able to attend the 3 days. I had to ask many pilots themselves if they'd be flying because staff either did not know or it wasnt indicated on the site or anywhere else. I know that things come up, but if you know a plane isnt going to fly both days, is only static, or is making flights on certain days etc -- you need to indicate this clearly to people. Perhaps by not indicating things clearly, you can sucker more people into the gates?
I was excited to see such a gathering of Spitfires. But what, 2 show up? I understand planes malfunction and that.. crap happens, we cant avoid that. But I think we, as your supporters (and paying customers) deserve to know what the heck is going on. Why are there only 2 Spitfires? Why didnt the Sea Fury make even 1 pass? Why didnt the A-10's do a demo like last year? And why werent we told what was happening? We deserve to know what's going on. Have a staff meeting to let people know the status of planes so that if people have questions, they can ask and get an informed/true answer. I dont believe supporters/spectators should have to ask the pilots if they're going to fly. Static planes should be labeled on the website or in some other fashion if they arent going to do a demo. I talked to one of the A-10 pilots about this. He informed me they werent doing a demo because they werent the demo team, but he was upset that people were not told in advance that the A-10s present would not being doign a demo team and why. He said that practicaly everyone he talked to expected a demo like last year and simply were not given any info, he seemed genuinely upset over it.
The seating was quite a horror for my family (and many others) including my grandfather, a vet. We sat over by the F-16s to start with. We sat in a place that we were told by staffers was a great place to sit and where we wouldnt be disturbed. We got out our chairs and got comfortable. No sooner did the annoucers say that we'd be getting moved soon, but only a few feet. A few feet. A few feet turned into sitting 50' away from the flightline and close enough to the P-51s/P-40/P-47s that we'd have to move all of our stuff every few minutes for many minutes at a time while they moved around. We ended up sitting over by the A-10's where we were not moved again, but good lord. If staffers dont know answers they should either say they dont know or be able to ask someone who has a clue about what's what.
Which brings me to the announcers. I've been to A LOT of airshows in my few years on this earth. More than many people twice my age. I've seen historic planes fly and sadly, I've seen them crash. But never have I come across such horrible announcers. Simply put, they couldnt keep quite for 10 seconds. And the DJ played music NON-STOP even during warbird demos. The combination of the two ruined home movies and destroyed the sound of hearing these one-of-a-kind planes fly. They were so loud and so interminable that it ruined the experience of seeing/hearing these planes. Many people around me (because of our proximity to the announcers stand) were shouting at them to be quiet, to shut up, and to stop playing the music. I cringed many times when they spouted off/made stupid jokes about Gene Hackman all day and when they gave info that was just plain false. Are there some kind of references that they possessed to make someone think they were qualified to "host" an airshow or did they win some kind of individual of questionable judgement lottery and this was their prize?
Also, seeing event organizers act as if they walk on water and rip people new ones infront of spectators is also totally uncalled for. I didnt pay $15 (x7) to see organizers be unprofessional and to see planes not show up. I understand that with airshows (especially warbird shows) that things change/come up. But I deserve to have information and to know why planes I paid to see, did not show up or fly.
I dont know how in the heck after last years great show, the Y.A.M dropped the ball so horribly this year. It really was sad and very poorly managed/coordinated/organized. I'm not saying this as if I'm some sort of mistro of doing these things, but as a spectator and a supporter, I'd like to think that by sharing my experience (and what I heard/saw) that improvements can be made. As an organizer/coordinator, your spectators and supporters are the best way for you to get unbiased feedback and you should take what we say seriously and work to make improvements. But as it stands right now, no way in heck would I come out next year. It's just too sloppy/uncoordinated/unprofessional and I feel like I was misinformed/denied info about planes simply to get money out of my wallet.
I appreciate all the effort/time/money/blood/sweat that went into this years show. I love and support the Y.A.F. which is why I'm putting this online anywhere I can. I want as many people to see it so that it has as many chances to be read as possible. I'd love it if the coordinators were able to read and take into consideration some of the things that people liked and disliked. The show was amazing. There's no way around that. I had a BLAST and I will be back next year, but I do hope there are some changes.
I dont know that I'll monitor this thread regularly, but please feel free to email me
TheNetwerk2020@yahoo.com
Sincerely,
Ben Sauter
On with the "review"
To the organizers (Tom Walsh and Michael Luther) /fans/anyone who may be interested,
I'd like to reply with my thoughts on T.O.M. 2006. I'm not a big-name photography guy. I dont wield thousands of dollars of camera equipment. I'm just a big fan of aviation/airshows/aircraft, who's interested in "supporting the cause." I'm a local, Willow Run is 15min from me. Just an average college student with a love of aviation and history.
Looking at the list of planes, I was set to be in heaven. My dad, who lives out of state (and is also a plane junky) monitored the list every-single-day (as I did) for any changes/additions. We decided a while ago we were going to attend T.O.M. 2006. After last years turn out, we were confident that what the website said was going to be there, was accurate. He came from out of state, only able to attend Saturday's show. In reading the plane list, he saw it was indicated that the B2 was a saturday only. So, it'd make sense that if any other planes were going to be 1 day only, we'd be notified. He mainly came to see the Lancaster fly. It wasnt indicated on the site that it was exclusive to Sunday, that was very unprofessional of the Y.A.M. and the person editing the website. If a plane such as the Lancaster is exclusive to one day, that information needs to be put out there in some form. Obviously someone thought to put it up for the B2. Perhaps a ploy to get people in the gates?
From the word go, my experience was very mixed. I dont want people in this forum to dismiss me as "some dumb spectator." To all the people at the Y.A.M./all high-n-mighty people on this forum, with all do respect, without spectator money -- you dont have an airshow nor will you have a museum. Your spectators and supportis deserve some credit and some respect, not to be dismissed as merely "dumb spectators." To an extent, we are all spectators, so stop being so rude and disrespectful to your SUPPORTERS.
Where do I start?!
My tickets were in my camera bag. Not knowing that tickets would be collected while we were still in the car, I had to get out of the car and get into the trunk to grab my camera bag and my tickets for my family (who traveled in many cars) -- think of the nightmare this was. The whole time, I had T.O.M. staffers griping at me for not having my tickets ready, yet they had no signs indicating that I needed to have them ready. Perhaps next year, if this will be the manner in which tickets are collected, put up some signs. I heard of many people having to deal with this problem.
I understand that crowd control was a real quagmire for the event/security organizers. It was a nightmare for us spectators, I assure you. I enjoyed being so close to the planes as they started up, but trying to navigate the crowd was insane. A walkway that was approx 200' wide being condensed to about 12' was not a good move. And people sitting in this approx 12' walkway made it even harder. Another problem was that the areas of parked planes were cleared FAR longer than they needed to be. For example, both P-47's were over by the "photo pit" and people were still not allowed back near the planes (no planes were coming/going/starting, either). Keeping the crowds pent up longer than they needed to be only added to the nightmare of trying to get around and led to me being late or missing many things I wanted to see.
Another thing that really bothered me was not knowing which planes were static and which would be flying -- and which day they'd be doing anything, for that matter. Many of the aircraft (and gatherings of them) that were highlights for me either never flew or only flew one day. Thankfully I was able to attend the 3 days. I had to ask many pilots themselves if they'd be flying because staff either did not know or it wasnt indicated on the site or anywhere else. I know that things come up, but if you know a plane isnt going to fly both days, is only static, or is making flights on certain days etc -- you need to indicate this clearly to people. Perhaps by not indicating things clearly, you can sucker more people into the gates?
I was excited to see such a gathering of Spitfires. But what, 2 show up? I understand planes malfunction and that.. crap happens, we cant avoid that. But I think we, as your supporters (and paying customers) deserve to know what the heck is going on. Why are there only 2 Spitfires? Why didnt the Sea Fury make even 1 pass? Why didnt the A-10's do a demo like last year? And why werent we told what was happening? We deserve to know what's going on. Have a staff meeting to let people know the status of planes so that if people have questions, they can ask and get an informed/true answer. I dont believe supporters/spectators should have to ask the pilots if they're going to fly. Static planes should be labeled on the website or in some other fashion if they arent going to do a demo. I talked to one of the A-10 pilots about this. He informed me they werent doing a demo because they werent the demo team, but he was upset that people were not told in advance that the A-10s present would not being doign a demo team and why. He said that practicaly everyone he talked to expected a demo like last year and simply were not given any info, he seemed genuinely upset over it.
The seating was quite a horror for my family (and many others) including my grandfather, a vet. We sat over by the F-16s to start with. We sat in a place that we were told by staffers was a great place to sit and where we wouldnt be disturbed. We got out our chairs and got comfortable. No sooner did the annoucers say that we'd be getting moved soon, but only a few feet. A few feet. A few feet turned into sitting 50' away from the flightline and close enough to the P-51s/P-40/P-47s that we'd have to move all of our stuff every few minutes for many minutes at a time while they moved around. We ended up sitting over by the A-10's where we were not moved again, but good lord. If staffers dont know answers they should either say they dont know or be able to ask someone who has a clue about what's what.
Which brings me to the announcers. I've been to A LOT of airshows in my few years on this earth. More than many people twice my age. I've seen historic planes fly and sadly, I've seen them crash. But never have I come across such horrible announcers. Simply put, they couldnt keep quite for 10 seconds. And the DJ played music NON-STOP even during warbird demos. The combination of the two ruined home movies and destroyed the sound of hearing these one-of-a-kind planes fly. They were so loud and so interminable that it ruined the experience of seeing/hearing these planes. Many people around me (because of our proximity to the announcers stand) were shouting at them to be quiet, to shut up, and to stop playing the music. I cringed many times when they spouted off/made stupid jokes about Gene Hackman all day and when they gave info that was just plain false. Are there some kind of references that they possessed to make someone think they were qualified to "host" an airshow or did they win some kind of individual of questionable judgement lottery and this was their prize?
Also, seeing event organizers act as if they walk on water and rip people new ones infront of spectators is also totally uncalled for. I didnt pay $15 (x7) to see organizers be unprofessional and to see planes not show up. I understand that with airshows (especially warbird shows) that things change/come up. But I deserve to have information and to know why planes I paid to see, did not show up or fly.
I dont know how in the heck after last years great show, the Y.A.M dropped the ball so horribly this year. It really was sad and very poorly managed/coordinated/organized. I'm not saying this as if I'm some sort of mistro of doing these things, but as a spectator and a supporter, I'd like to think that by sharing my experience (and what I heard/saw) that improvements can be made. As an organizer/coordinator, your spectators and supporters are the best way for you to get unbiased feedback and you should take what we say seriously and work to make improvements. But as it stands right now, no way in heck would I come out next year. It's just too sloppy/uncoordinated/unprofessional and I feel like I was misinformed/denied info about planes simply to get money out of my wallet.
I appreciate all the effort/time/money/blood/sweat that went into this years show. I love and support the Y.A.F. which is why I'm putting this online anywhere I can. I want as many people to see it so that it has as many chances to be read as possible. I'd love it if the coordinators were able to read and take into consideration some of the things that people liked and disliked. The show was amazing. There's no way around that. I had a BLAST and I will be back next year, but I do hope there are some changes.
I dont know that I'll monitor this thread regularly, but please feel free to email me
TheNetwerk2020@yahoo.com
Sincerely,
Ben Sauter
Last edited by TheNetwerk on Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:04 am
I can assure that the Vintage Wings of Canada Spit XVI was sick during ToM, as it was under maintenance at the Vintage Wings hangar.
For the rest, complicated airplanes do break, pilots do get sick or caught up elsewhere and weather do prevent trips.
For the rest, complicated airplanes do break, pilots do get sick or caught up elsewhere and weather do prevent trips.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:54 am
I think some of this was covered here:
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... 77&start=0
Please read and you will learn a few things from the pilots and those who were involved or have been involved in airshow creation and execution. I think a gentle approach to pointing out problems that you saw and would like corrected (and how) would go a lot further than what I see as a totally disgruntled and antagonistic post. Sorry to be so blunt but I really got very sick of listen to the fence check posts of this subject, which is why I totally dropped out of that thread.
No airshow is perfect, YAF is continues to try to refine and learn from each show. I first attended in 2003 and I can say that they have come a long way. I think a lot of that path has been listening to feedback and how those people would like to see things changed for the better. You have a chance to be heard here and on FenceCheck, please don’t blow that by having those in the position to make changes disregard your opinion because of how you come across.
Tim
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... 77&start=0
Please read and you will learn a few things from the pilots and those who were involved or have been involved in airshow creation and execution. I think a gentle approach to pointing out problems that you saw and would like corrected (and how) would go a lot further than what I see as a totally disgruntled and antagonistic post. Sorry to be so blunt but I really got very sick of listen to the fence check posts of this subject, which is why I totally dropped out of that thread.
No airshow is perfect, YAF is continues to try to refine and learn from each show. I first attended in 2003 and I can say that they have come a long way. I think a lot of that path has been listening to feedback and how those people would like to see things changed for the better. You have a chance to be heard here and on FenceCheck, please don’t blow that by having those in the position to make changes disregard your opinion because of how you come across.
Tim
Re: Thunder Over MI 2006
Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:06 am
TheNetwerk wrote:I dont know that I'll monitor this thread any longer
Huh?
Anyway, a buddy of mine who’s an Air Traffic Controller and an experienced Airboss once suggested to me that he and I take over running a show. He’s got pretty good reflexes, too, because he ducked the 3/8 open-end I tossed at him.
Running an airshow is Tough Work.
TheNetwerk wrote: I'm a local, Willow Run is 15min from me. Just an average college student with a love of aviation and history.
Have you considered volunteering? I’m sure they could use your help.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:17 am
Ollie wrote:I can assure that the Vintage Wings of Canada Spit XVI was sick during ToM, as it was under maintenance at the Vintage Wings hangar.
For the rest, complicated airplanes do break, pilots do get sick or caught up elsewhere and weather do prevent trips.
Oh, I totally understand that stuff happens/comes up/breaks and there is just nothing that can be done about it. I dont blame the pilots/companies/planes/etc for having their issues who were unable to attend.
My disappointment is with the T.o.M coordinators/planners/staffers who never really notified the supporters of planes inability to be there. They shouted from the roof tops when something was scheduled/confirmed, but kept rather silent when it had to cancel, leaving many supporters to believe it'd still be there.
Re: Thunder Over MI 2006
Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:21 am
Eric Friedebach wrote:TheNetwerk wrote:I dont know that I'll monitor this thread any longer
Huh?
Anyway, a buddy of mine who’s an Air Traffic Controller and an experienced Airboss once suggested to me that he and I take over running a show. He’s got pretty good reflexes, too, because he ducked the 3/8 open-end I tossed at him.
Running an airshow is Tough Work.TheNetwerk wrote: I'm a local, Willow Run is 15min from me. Just an average college student with a love of aviation and history.
Have you considered volunteering? I’m sure they could use your help.
I never said that anything was easy, but as a supporter of the Y.A.M. I want to help them create the best airshow possible and I believe that taking time to write up my experience could be very helpful to them/others who are interested.
And yes, I have considered volunteering. Not that it's any of your concern, it just couldnt work out this year with a mixture of school, travel and family issues.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:17 pm
TimAPNY wrote:I think some of this was covered here:
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... 77&start=0
Please read and you will learn a few things from the pilots and those who were involved or have been involved in airshow creation and execution. I think a gentle approach to pointing out problems that you saw and would like corrected (and how) would go a lot further than what I see as a totally disgruntled and antagonistic post. Sorry to be so blunt but I really got very sick of listen to the fence check posts of this subject, which is why I totally dropped out of that thread.
No airshow is perfect, YAF is continues to try to refine and learn from each show. I first attended in 2003 and I can say that they have come a long way. I think a lot of that path has been listening to feedback and how those people would like to see things changed for the better. You have a chance to be heard here and on FenceCheck, please don’t blow that by having those in the position to make changes disregard your opinion because of how you come across.
Tim
One of the things I dont like about fencecheck is people treating others like they are morons. I see it continues here.
If your so sick of this topic/people's review of this show, then perhaps you should have opted to not read my review?
I'm not expecting anything to be perfect. I never said any such thing. You say they continue to learn and refine -- I'm trying to help them do so by giving up my review of the show. I'd like to see the best airshow possible as well, and I'd like to help them grow. I'm sorry if you or other's do not like that.
To be blunt, if people dont like the way I come across, that's their problem, not mine. I sat and made a list of what I loved/liked/disliked/hated about the airshow and tried to think of solutions, but as I said, I'm no mistro of airshow coordination so I dont pretend to be by offering up lame solutions so that others (like you) can badger me about why they wouldnt work. Wow that was a long sentence. I tried to be as articulate as I could with stuff that could be worked on, I've seem some other reviews that said the show was lame and how much it sucked in one paragraph (or less). I dont feel the show sucked at all, I know how hard everyone worked and what all it took -- but I'd like to help in anyway I can to make the airshow even better so we all can have a better experience. The things I've brought up I've seen brought up quite a bit, so I'm not just some bitter airshow patron who doesnt not squat venting and being angsty, I'm a fan of history/aviation and a supporter of the Y.A.F/Y.A.M. and I'd like to see some stuff improved on, I shouldnt have to apologize for it, but I'm sorry if you dont respect my wanting to help/me.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:54 pm
TheNetwerk wrote:My disappointment is with the T.o.M coordinators/planners/staffers who never really notified the supporters of planes inability to be there. They shouted from the roof tops when something was scheduled/confirmed, but kept rather silent when it had to cancel, leaving many supporters to believe it'd still be there.
I could not disagree more. YAF organizers posted on WIX a number of times indicating when the list was updated. Even when the event drew nearer they were posting additions and deletions lists in addition to the overall list. Very few shows do that, even fewer (and the YAF is one of the fewer) make the extra effort to let you know what can't make it. And on top of that, some times you don't know an aircraft is not showing until the day of the show. You can't possibly advertise that kind of last minute update.
I am just getting back on WIX after attending Thunder and a week of vacation. Congrats to the Yankee Air Force Museum for putting on another excellant show. As requested by Todd Hackbarth I will be putting together a list of comments regarding what worked well and what didn't.
I am looking forward to the next Thunder.
Mike
Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:16 pm
mrhenniger wrote:TheNetwerk wrote:My disappointment is with the T.o.M coordinators/planners/staffers who never really notified the supporters of planes inability to be there. They shouted from the roof tops when something was scheduled/confirmed, but kept rather silent when it had to cancel, leaving many supporters to believe it'd still be there.
I could not disagree more. YAF organizers posted on WIX a number of times indicating when the list was updated. Even when the event drew nearer they were posting additions and deletions lists in addition to the overall list. Very few shows do that, even fewer (and the YAF is one of the fewer) make the extra effort to let you know what can't make it. And on top of that, some times you don't know an aircraft is not showing until the day of the show. You can't possibly advertise that kind of last minute update.
I am just getting back on WIX after attending Thunder and a week of vacation. Congrats to the Yankee Air Force Museum for putting on another excellant show. As requested by Todd Hackbarth I will be putting together a list of comments regarding what worked well and what didn't.
I am looking forward to the next Thunder.
Mike
See, I'm new to WIXers and I think it's to say that the overwhelming majority of people in attendence were not WIXers. They were just average people wanting to see a show. And then there were some warbird buffs that came to see specific things that maybe are older and not "down" with technology so much. It's great that they posted here, but sadly not all warbird enthuasists are on here. It wouldnt be hard to slip a piece of paper in with the packet that was handed up to people in their cars. Nor would have been hard to update the official plane list's website, which was not done and what I believe most people used for info. And you could have had the announcers say something as well, that wouldnt be too hard and could be helpful for last minute stuff.
I never said that they made absolutley no attempts to give info out. But, the overwhelming majority of people did not have info about what'd be performing/static and what was/wasnt showing up and why. Of course some people who are a part of fencecheck/WIXers knew, but that accounts for what.. 5% of the total audience being informed?
I hope your "list" will be fairly representative of people's experiences, but from your seemingly baditude I dont believe it will be.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:24 pm
TheNetwerk wrote:See, I'm new to WIXers and I think it's to say that the overwhelming majority of people in attendence were not WIXers.
Good point.
TheNetwerk wrote:It wouldnt be hard to slip a piece of paper in with the packet that was handed up to people in their cars.
I am not sure what that would accomplish. Assuming admission had been paid at that point, you can walk out on the ramp and see what is there. No better list than that. Also, creating more hand outs would increase the cost of the event to YAF.
TheNetwerk wrote:Nor would have been hard to update the official plane list's website, which was not done and what I believe most people used for info.
You are absolutely wrong on this point sir. The YAF made regular updates to the list. In addition they went out of their way and notified WIX when this was done.
TheNetwerk wrote:And you could have had the announcers say something as well, that wouldnt be too hard and could be helpful for last minute stuff.
That is a good point. Perhaps the annoucers could have been more informative as to what was there, what wastn't and what was expected. I can't say if they did or not. I had positioned myself outside of the range of the speakers.
TheNetwerk wrote:I never said that they made absolutley no attempts to give info out. But, the overwhelming majority of people did not have info about what'd be performing/static and what was/wasnt showing up and why. Of course some people who are a part of fencecheck/WIXers knew, but that accounts for what.. 5% of the total audience being informed?
The most an organization can reasonably do these days is update the website. As I mentioned above the YAF did this on a regular basis. It is also worth remembering that in the days before the internet there was no such service. You would go to the show and see what was there. Nothing more to it.
TheNetwerk wrote:I hope your "list" will be fairly representative of people's experiences, but from your seemingly baditude I dont believe it will be.
Excuse me? Bad attitude? You really don't know me (remember you are new around here), and I take offense to you attacking my character like that. I am planning a balanced analysis, as I hope the YAF will find it useful. We are just trying to have a constructive conversation here. You can count on the YAF reading this thread and all the other threads in detail. They are certainly hearing you loud and clear. At this point I feel it is necessary to point out that your method of criticizing is now turning in a very unproductive direction. If you are going to throw daggers like you will find many here will have nothing to do with you.
Regards,
Mike
Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:53 pm
"I am not sure what that would accomplish. Assuming admission had been paid at that point, you can walk out on the ramp and see what is there. No better list than that. Also, creating more hand outs would increase the cost of the event to YAF."
..and those flyers they handed to every car drove down the cost?
"You are absolutely wrong on this point sir. The YAF made regular updates to the list. In addition they went out of their way and notified WIX when this was done."
..I checked the website multiple times a day made printouts double checking for changes. Never did they delete a plane that cancled or was a no show. Nor did they ever update the plane list with info about planes not showing up. For god's sake, look right here, it's STILL not updated: http://www.yankeeairmuseum.org/airshow/aircraft.htm
Any changes they made were very quiet and someone who was part of the general public would not have noticed.
"The most an organization can reasonably do these days is update the website. As I mentioned above the YAF did this on a regular basis. It is also worth remembering that in the days before the internet there was no such service. You would go to the show and see what was there. Nothing more to it."
It seems they quietly handled planes cancelling etc so that the general public (the largest # of ticket buyers) would have to buy a non-refundable ticket before they were able to see/know what actually showed up/would be flying, that doesnt seem right to me. They said on the website that the B2 would be a Saturday thing only, but failed to mention that the Lancaster was sunday only. I had family come in from out of the state as well as my eldery grandfather (a vet) to see that plane fly. They were unable to go to Sundays show because of travel, but nowhere did the Y.A.M. indicate the Lancaster was Sunday only. I understand there were cost issues, which is understandable, but I know A LOT of people were disappointed that they were not notified. Remember, not everyone is a WIXer.
"Excuse me? Bad attitude? You really don't know me (remember you are new around here), and I take offense to you attacking my character like that. I am planning a balanced analysis, as I hope the YAF will find it useful. We are just trying to have a constructive conversation here. You can count on the YAF reading this thread and all the other threads in detail. They are certainly hearing you loud and clear. At this point I feel it is necessary to point out that your method of criticizing is now turning in a very unproductive direction. If you are going to throw daggers like you will find many here will have nothing to do with you."
Remember you dont know me either. All I did was post my experience with the show and you are the only person badgering me about it, and that tells me all I need to know about you. If you want a constructive conversation, than I suggest you knock off the badgering. All I'm doing is trying to get the word out to try to help improve on something that's already great. I'm sorry you cant seem to respect that or me. To be blunt, I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to get/share information, hence.. information exchange not "www.letsmakewarbirdbuddies.org" So unless you can be civil, this is where I stop feeding a troll.
..and those flyers they handed to every car drove down the cost?
TheNetwerk wrote:Nor would have been hard to update the official plane list's website, which was not done and what I believe most people used for info.
"You are absolutely wrong on this point sir. The YAF made regular updates to the list. In addition they went out of their way and notified WIX when this was done."
..I checked the website multiple times a day made printouts double checking for changes. Never did they delete a plane that cancled or was a no show. Nor did they ever update the plane list with info about planes not showing up. For god's sake, look right here, it's STILL not updated: http://www.yankeeairmuseum.org/airshow/aircraft.htm
Any changes they made were very quiet and someone who was part of the general public would not have noticed.
"The most an organization can reasonably do these days is update the website. As I mentioned above the YAF did this on a regular basis. It is also worth remembering that in the days before the internet there was no such service. You would go to the show and see what was there. Nothing more to it."
It seems they quietly handled planes cancelling etc so that the general public (the largest # of ticket buyers) would have to buy a non-refundable ticket before they were able to see/know what actually showed up/would be flying, that doesnt seem right to me. They said on the website that the B2 would be a Saturday thing only, but failed to mention that the Lancaster was sunday only. I had family come in from out of the state as well as my eldery grandfather (a vet) to see that plane fly. They were unable to go to Sundays show because of travel, but nowhere did the Y.A.M. indicate the Lancaster was Sunday only. I understand there were cost issues, which is understandable, but I know A LOT of people were disappointed that they were not notified. Remember, not everyone is a WIXer.
TheNetwerk wrote:I hope your "list" will be fairly representative of people's experiences, but from your seemingly baditude I dont believe it will be.
"Excuse me? Bad attitude? You really don't know me (remember you are new around here), and I take offense to you attacking my character like that. I am planning a balanced analysis, as I hope the YAF will find it useful. We are just trying to have a constructive conversation here. You can count on the YAF reading this thread and all the other threads in detail. They are certainly hearing you loud and clear. At this point I feel it is necessary to point out that your method of criticizing is now turning in a very unproductive direction. If you are going to throw daggers like you will find many here will have nothing to do with you."
Remember you dont know me either. All I did was post my experience with the show and you are the only person badgering me about it, and that tells me all I need to know about you. If you want a constructive conversation, than I suggest you knock off the badgering. All I'm doing is trying to get the word out to try to help improve on something that's already great. I'm sorry you cant seem to respect that or me. To be blunt, I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to get/share information, hence.. information exchange not "www.letsmakewarbirdbuddies.org" So unless you can be civil, this is where I stop feeding a troll.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:19 pm
"To be blunt, I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to get/share information, hence.. information exchange not "www.letsmakewarbirdbuddies.org"
So unless you can be civil, this is where I stop feeding a troll."
Not that Mike Henniger needs anyone to defend him; not that we will always get along with everyone; it is just human nature that we will disagree with others.
BUT . . . . you can catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar.
Thus, calling Mike a troll, is disrespectful because you could not find a nicer guy even if you looked all your life.
If your attitude is to come here and get information, and not to make friends, then you will come up very short. People tend to gravitate away from those who just seek to "use" others, in this case, for information alone.
I have made good frienships here -and also have made some foes- but in toto, the friendships have been worthy and productive.
I do see your point of view when you indicate the things that you saw wrong with the airshow.
Most people who work in these things are volunteers, and as such, coordination between different groups is difficult at best.
Having worked as a volunteer for so many years at the Wings Over Houston airshows and open houses in West Houston and a couple of times in San Marcos, TX, I know what you are talking about and I have lived it myself.
I have pointed myself a couple of instances regarding the Indianapolis airshow...
Please try to be less confrontational on this issue, I am sure that your comments will be better received and you will achieve more in helping to make that show, a better show.
Saludos,
Tulio
So unless you can be civil, this is where I stop feeding a troll."
Not that Mike Henniger needs anyone to defend him; not that we will always get along with everyone; it is just human nature that we will disagree with others.
BUT . . . . you can catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar.
Thus, calling Mike a troll, is disrespectful because you could not find a nicer guy even if you looked all your life.
If your attitude is to come here and get information, and not to make friends, then you will come up very short. People tend to gravitate away from those who just seek to "use" others, in this case, for information alone.
I have made good frienships here -and also have made some foes- but in toto, the friendships have been worthy and productive.
I do see your point of view when you indicate the things that you saw wrong with the airshow.
Most people who work in these things are volunteers, and as such, coordination between different groups is difficult at best.
Having worked as a volunteer for so many years at the Wings Over Houston airshows and open houses in West Houston and a couple of times in San Marcos, TX, I know what you are talking about and I have lived it myself.
I have pointed myself a couple of instances regarding the Indianapolis airshow...
Please try to be less confrontational on this issue, I am sure that your comments will be better received and you will achieve more in helping to make that show, a better show.
Saludos,
Tulio
Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:08 pm
Everybody chill. And Nettwork, your making quite a first impression here. I get the distinct impression that you really have no idea what goes into an airshow. It is a long and involved process that is made harder by having little money to work with and having to deal with a wide variety of owners and aircraft that attend out of the love of warbirds more than any compensation they recieve. The problem is that sometimes maintenance, conflicting schedules, and pilot health affect these things. Often those aircraft that drop out are doing so at the last minute. The organizers do thier best.
As for the announcers, while probably less needed at this type of show than at a regular military airshow they are still needed. I understand you want to listen to the aircraft, I do as well, but a lot of people listen to the announcers to find out what is going on. Its part of the airshow, deal with it.
The layout could have been better from what I understand and hopefully it will be next year. Instead of griping about it, make suggestions. A good portion of the YAM staff frequent this forum and constructive criticism is sure to be heard.
Your entitled to your opinion of course but make sure it does not degenerate into personal attacks.
As for the announcers, while probably less needed at this type of show than at a regular military airshow they are still needed. I understand you want to listen to the aircraft, I do as well, but a lot of people listen to the announcers to find out what is going on. Its part of the airshow, deal with it.
The layout could have been better from what I understand and hopefully it will be next year. Instead of griping about it, make suggestions. A good portion of the YAM staff frequent this forum and constructive criticism is sure to be heard.
Your entitled to your opinion of course but make sure it does not degenerate into personal attacks.
Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:10 pm
I decided to try Fence Check and this is the guy who made me not want to go back. He is all-full of spit and vinegar. The part that kills me is he keeps bringing up the word individual of questionable judgement.
Eric
Eric
Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:12 pm
Oh man, somebody edited my last word 
Scott!
Eric
Scott!
Eric