Petition to save 9/11 F-15

[RickH]

Got a question, System . When was the last time you were a fighter pilot?

You do realize that you are spouting off to a real live Eagle Driver. The man has been there with his finger on the trigger. He works with the guys you are so nonchalantly judging, with no experience I'll add ! Yes, its true he's been slumming for the last couple of years but he's about to go back to his real job. We appreciate his insight to what he does and his explanations of what's going on in his world that could ultimately have a big impact on ours.

Thanks Hacker, hope to meet up with you face to face someday so that I can buy you a beer!

[T J Johansen]

Maybe... well very likely. I don't think I would want that responsibility, but I would think when you sign up for the job you must realize you just might be faced with that kind of decision.

You sign up to defend your country and your fellow countrymen. To send 400 of them to kingdom come might be strong medicine to swallow to even the most loyal, dutybound pilot. As Randy says, when do one make the decision that the souls onboard are lost?

It might be a cold way to look at it, but when you may be looking at 400 in the plane and 2000 potential souls in the building, bringing the numbers down to 400 from 2400 is a real option. Still it would be hard to press the button.

As said before. It would be very hard to kill your own innocent population. As Randy says, enemy combatants is one thing, but civilians... I would actually feel better about a pilot who thinks, rethinks, and rethinks that order again. Blindly following orders is BAD. Also, by the time a plane would be deemed lost it would very likely be over populated area. You blow it out of the sky, and the plane falls down into NYC killing a total of 1999 on the ground + the ones on the plane. Did you win, or did you lose? Just to add some more flavour to this stew the aircraft is not American, but an Air France or Lufthansa 747. I'd like to see the US administration with enough "cojones" to down that...!

T J

[Randy Haskin]

wouldn't there be a point where you would understand what is going on and what the aircraft's intention's are? I think there would be a certain point where it seems like one would realize what is about to happen?

Yes, definitely. The question is...when is that point? On 9/11, that was after two aircraft had all ready found their targets.

Remember...fighters are not laser gun equipped. A pilot doesn't push a button and the target, regardless of range, aspect angle, or relative closure from the fighter instantly blows up. It takes some maneuvering, manipulation of the fire control systems, and some time for the missile to fly out to its target. That can take time...it's not a lot, but its time that may not be there depending on when the decision is made to destroy the airliner.

I have read the reports of the F-15 and F-16 interceptors that responded on 9/11, and I completely understand everything that happened to them and why they weren't able to stop the attacks. There's a really good book that the USAF has put into print called "The First 600 Days Of Combat" which details everything from 9/11 to Afghanistan and Iraq. While I don't agree with some of the reporting on Iraq (there isn't even a one-liner mentioning the F-15E's role, even though it's credited with solely and completely decimating the Medina and Hammurabi Republican Guard, but that's another story...), it does have a minute-by-minute breakdown of the interceptor response on 9/11.

Those guys did their job to the best of their ability with what they "knew" in the pre 9/11 world. There is absolutely nothing they would have realistically done that might have changed the way events went down on that day. By the time anyone in the chain of command came to the decision that the airliners had to be shot down and that authorization was passed to the pink thumb that had to push the red button to launch the missile, the airliners would have long since found their targets all ready.

That being said, many things have changed since 9/11. There are procedures and training to handle this kind of scenario now -- and I'm certain that if 9/11 were replayed today there would be a different outcome than 5 years ago.

Yes, its true he's been slumming for the last couple of years but he's about to go back to his real job.

The good news is that my last flight in the T-38 was two weeks ago; my first re-qual flight in the F-15E is in about two weeks!

Thanks Hacker, hope to meet up with you face to face someday so that I can buy you a beer!

Looking forward to it, too!

[oscardeuce]

Flying a T-38 is "slumming it"??!! Boy I'd give significant male anatomy to fly that bird!

[Randy Haskin]

Got a question, System . When was the last time you were a fighter pilot?

In all fairness, having experience in a certain area isn't necessarily a pre-requisite to have an opinion...everyone's entitled to their opinion. At the same time, just because I do have experience in this area it doesn't automatically mean that my opinion is the only valid one.

He has a legitimate point...a trigger-puller needs to be able to un-flinchingly do the job when the time comes.

It is also important to realize, however, that nobody in the military is a robot -- we're just real people with a very fast-moving, dynamic job that has life and death consequences. Infantry troops and fighter pilots alike don't just indiscriminately kill without any kind of emotion. Even when taking another human life -- that of an enemy combatant -- is completely legal and legitimate, anyone who says that doesn't have some kind of emotional impact on them is lieing. You could probably say the same thing about Law Enforcement people who have on-the-job shootings.

The warriors who are professionals are able to separate that emotion from the mission. On the mission where I first knew that the bomb I had dropped had killed a fleshy person on the ground, I didn't think much about it at the time...but when I got back home after the mission and went to sleep that night I sure thought about it. And guess what...the next morning I woke up and went out and did it again. It's not because I was happy that I'd smoked an Iraqi...it's that I could morally and emotionally come to terms with my job as a professional warrior. That's something I had to do well before I even took this job -- but it's different when it happens for real right in front of your eyes.

So, I don't buy that in order to be qualified to fly top cover over the US you have to be able to coldly kill innocents regardless of the scenario. In fact, if I flew with fighter pilots who didn't think twice about it, that would really worry me. On the other hand, I would also be worried about pilots who knew that we had to down a jetliner with 300 souls on board, and let their emotions get in the way of completing the job at hand.

[Sabremech]

Oscardeuce,
How many F-15's do you think will make it into civillian hands and be airworthy? The answer is zero! Since we will only be able to see them in a museum, let's display the ones with some kind of history.
Comparing what you saw on the ramp at TOM and the combat history of each vs saving this particuliar F-15 is irrelevant.
I'll change my viewpoint to yours when I see an airworthy F-15 in the hands of a civillian owner.
David

[RickH]

Careful, Sabremech. That's what many said about the F-4 !

[Former Member]

I have to agree with Scippy & Mudge on this topic. It would be different if the F-15's actually did something during the attacks.

Then let me be the Devil for a second. Using the above logic, next time you go to an airshow. Get rid of all the Warbirds that did not serve in combat, and never fired a round in anger. That would leave a very empty ramp. you'd be lucky to have 1 airplane left of the group. How many of the planes at ToM were combat veterans? Be kind of loney out there.

If you will save an aircraft for a musum, why not choose one with a story. In this case, instead of one of many F-15's choose the 9/11, or any one with a story or combat history.

oscardeuce,
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for saving aircraft regardless of it's war record or historical background. I just think that the rational for preserving this particular F-15 is a bit flimsy when you consider other F-15's out there that have a more notable service record like sabremech mentioned.

John

[Paul Krumrei]

My 2 cents....The airplane did nothing important. No shoot downs, No intercepts, nothing. It flew.

Lets make all the aircraft in the US inventory a historical memorial, because even on the ground, the protect what we fight for...freedom.

Creating a memorial out of a single jet, that did nothing, is a waste of tax payers money and a joke.

Take a picture, put it in a book and call it a day. Nothing more should be done with it.

What about the F-16 strike that just took out the #2 guy in Iraq? Should that be displayed as a memorial to as who kill that guy? Naw.

We have too many memorials about 9/11 as it is. If they took that money and spent it on finding terrorist and killing them, we would all be better off.

[oscardeuce]

Sabremech,
I said excatly that save the aircraft with a history. Did you read my last line?

"If you will save an aircraft for a musum, why not choose one with a story. In this case, instead of one of many F-15's choose the 9/11, or any one with a story or combat history."

This aircraft may not have fired a shot, but does represent a time in history.

"I'll change my viewpoint to yours when I see an airworthy F-15 in the hands of a civillian owner"

9/11 put that baby to sleep, no more no matter how deep the pockets.

[Sabremech]

OK,
Lets put in museums all the military aircraft that were flying on 9/11. How many would that be? So we singled out this one that was scrambled to intercept no one. Makes perfect sense to me. And while were at it, lets put a 767 or 757 in the museum too. They'd be just as relevant.
There are enough memorials for 9/11. Lets remember and get on with our lives. Lets live for those we lost.
This F-15 has no more history than any other airplane that was flying that day!! It has no more history than the F-15 I crewed on alert at Langley that was scrambled for an unknown aircraft. I've worked on a lot more Eagles with substantial history vs this one.
My vote is still NO.
Thanks
David

[Waltz41]

I really debated on whether or not to post this or not....really it's off topic so if it should be moved or something, go ahead Scott. Also, I'm not sure how many people have heard this or know anything about it. My brother actually emailed me it. Sometimes posts can be like a match ready to be put into a can of gasoline. I am not looking for any blasting or to get into it with anyone on here, this is simply a post!

It's an article on what happened on 9/11 with regards to our air defenses. Don't let the first part of the website fool you. Read it if you like.

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

brian

[skippyscage]

thanks Brian - interesting reading

[RickH]

Thanks, Brian. Amazing stuff.

It's right on topic. The audio excerpts are amazing.

It dovetails exactly with what Randy was saying about pre 9/11.

[Warbirdnerd]

I found this update today:

TheBostonChannel.com
Sept. 11 Fighter Jet Saved From Scrap Heap
Otis-Based Jets Sent To NYC On Sept. 11, 2001

POSTED: 10:59 am EDT October 4, 2006
UPDATED: 11:14 am EDT October 4, 2006

FALMOUTH, Mass. -- One of the fighter jets based at Otis Air National Guard Base that first responded to the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks in New York City has been saved from the scrap heap.

The aging fleet of F-15As of the 102nd Fighter Wing was destined to be retired and possibly dismantled for parts or scrap metal until Keith Middleton, a former member of the unit, began an effort to preserve at least one of the aircraft.

Middleton reached out to another airplane junkie, Wallace Van Winkle, and the two started a petition drive, which they said has been signed by nearly 300 people.

"I started somewhat of a movement. When Wally saw what I was trying to do, he kind of ran with it," Middleton, who runs a Web site focused on Otis called www.102ndfighterwing.com., told The Cape Cod Times.

This week, they got word that a jet would be preserved. But officials of the National Museum of the United States Air Force aren't certain what they will do with the aircraft. The museum, home to more than 300 planes and missiles, already has an F-15 display.

Museum officials said the plane will be available to whatever group can come up with the money to decommission it and ship it to a new site. Preference will be given to military organizations.

Possible homes for the jet are the Intrepid Sea, Air and Space Museum in New York or the New England Air Museum in Connecticut.

The F-15s that were based at Otis currently are at the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center in Tucson, Ariz., where they were flown last July.

And I found it here:
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/99 ... etail.html