Cavalier Quesions
Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:23 pm
How many Mustangs did Cavalier convert/rebuild? How many of those are still in Cavalier configuration? It seems to me most that are still around have reverted to stock P-51D configuration, leaving this important part of the Mustang story mostly overlooked.
Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:18 am
There were somewhere in the neighborhood of 22 to 24 civilian conversions and about 30 factory-remanufactured military spec aircraft. There were scores of others (both military and civilian) which recieved partial modification but not factory remanufacture.
There are still a couple of airframes in the basic military Cavalier configuration and zero civil conversions that I am aware of:
67-22579 (N251RM, "FF579")
44-13257 (NL51DL, Cavalier Corporate Demonstrator owned by Ed Lindsay)
FAS 405 (N405HC, "It's About Time")
I believe that there are still at least two pure, unrestored Cavaliers in Indonesia that the TNI-AU has on static display. Still others retain some of the Cavalier mods, even following "restoration". There are even a couple airframes that were not Cavalier aircraft to start with that have picked up the tall tail during recent conversion to TF-51 config.
There are still a couple of airframes in the basic military Cavalier configuration and zero civil conversions that I am aware of:
67-22579 (N251RM, "FF579")
44-13257 (NL51DL, Cavalier Corporate Demonstrator owned by Ed Lindsay)
FAS 405 (N405HC, "It's About Time")
I believe that there are still at least two pure, unrestored Cavaliers in Indonesia that the TNI-AU has on static display. Still others retain some of the Cavalier mods, even following "restoration". There are even a couple airframes that were not Cavalier aircraft to start with that have picked up the tall tail during recent conversion to TF-51 config.
Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:02 pm
What about Lee Schaller's N9857P? It is still in the Cavalier guise, if I'm not mistaken!
T J Johansen
T J Johansen
Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:25 pm
I am pretty sure this aircraft is *not* a Cavalier factory remanufacture, but a field-modified aircraft. This means that it has a Cavalier tail and might very well have a Cavalier instrument panel, but has none of the other structural improvements.
There is some thought in the Mustang "community" is that it is 72-1538, but not having inspected it myself, I am not so sure. The shots of it circa 1984 don't show it having the cockpit plenum box, which is a "must" feature on a factory Cavalier. Coggan's book identifies the airplane as 44-85962, F 312. Indonesian Cavaliers were all given F-36X numbers. I don't know where along the line the 72-xxxx number was attached to it, as F 364/72-1538 is popularly associated with the "fake" serial number 45-11447.
I'd be VERY interested to hear from anyone with detailed photos of this aircraft (especially up in the cockpit) to help clear up the details.
There is some thought in the Mustang "community" is that it is 72-1538, but not having inspected it myself, I am not so sure. The shots of it circa 1984 don't show it having the cockpit plenum box, which is a "must" feature on a factory Cavalier. Coggan's book identifies the airplane as 44-85962, F 312. Indonesian Cavaliers were all given F-36X numbers. I don't know where along the line the 72-xxxx number was attached to it, as F 364/72-1538 is popularly associated with the "fake" serial number 45-11447.
I'd be VERY interested to hear from anyone with detailed photos of this aircraft (especially up in the cockpit) to help clear up the details.
Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:21 pm
I do have some slides shot in Lee Schaller's hangar in 1993. There is also one of the cockpit I think. Unfortunately I don't have any scanner that can deal with slides/negatives available to me at this time. The plane is not F-312 as I saw that fuselage sitting outside Aero Trader in the mid-late 90's. I just walked by their hangar when I saw a 51 fuselage sitting near their yard with the gate open. I walked by and looked at it, and found the Indonesian insignia and the #F-312 still etched in the metal. I felt this was a number I had seen before, and went back to Pioneer Aero Service to look in the WW directory. There I found which plane it "supposedly" was, but of course I knew that Steven Johnson and co didn't bother about those things when marketing the projects.
T J Johansen
T J Johansen
Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:45 pm
Thanks guys. The Cavalier Mustangs are often overlooked and hard to find information on. I have not seen Paul Coggan's article on the subject, which issue of which magazine, and any chance a back issue is still available? Randy, I look forward to seeing your book when you get it completed.
Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:07 am
Dan, email sent.
TJ, again I am suspicious of all aspects of the identity. If I could see the airplane in person it might be possible to see some of the tell-tale Cavalier remanufacture signs (so long as the airplane hasn't had a major overhaul...). I'm still more inclined to say that this is a field-modified airplane rather than a 72-xxxx airplane until I see some evidence otherwise.
Timeline for the Cavalier Mustangs book is to have something published and in-hand for the Mustang Roundup in Reno in 2006. That gives me plenty of time to continue researching and writing, but also gives me time to have a product available for what will be the biggest P-51 event of the decade.
TJ, again I am suspicious of all aspects of the identity. If I could see the airplane in person it might be possible to see some of the tell-tale Cavalier remanufacture signs (so long as the airplane hasn't had a major overhaul...). I'm still more inclined to say that this is a field-modified airplane rather than a 72-xxxx airplane until I see some evidence otherwise.
Timeline for the Cavalier Mustangs book is to have something published and in-hand for the Mustang Roundup in Reno in 2006. That gives me plenty of time to continue researching and writing, but also gives me time to have a product available for what will be the biggest P-51 event of the decade.
Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 pm
Randy:
For my own research I'd submit this for you. N2151D (formerly N5073K)had the canopy plenum box (small canpoy now installed and thus the box was removed). The wheel wells were painted grey ( the gear legs and doors were repainted silver, but the wells are still light grey) and the cockpit still has the black naghyde(sp) with the Cavalier switches, instrument panel and circuit breaker layout. I know I asked previously if this was a factory bird or a field kit? Thx.
VL
For my own research I'd submit this for you. N2151D (formerly N5073K)had the canopy plenum box (small canpoy now installed and thus the box was removed). The wheel wells were painted grey ( the gear legs and doors were repainted silver, but the wells are still light grey) and the cockpit still has the black naghyde(sp) with the Cavalier switches, instrument panel and circuit breaker layout. I know I asked previously if this was a factory bird or a field kit? Thx.
VL
Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:15 am
Vlado,
Your bird was a Cavalier 750, a civilian factory rebuild completed circa '63. She started life with Trans-Florida Aviation circa 1958, acquired in the 2nd or third batch of surplus Mustangs that TFA purchased (I don't know precisely where she was purchased, but I believe from Mike Coutches). The first evidence I have is that your airframe was at TFA in a list of airframes published in 1959. The old FAA registry database shows that the Cavalier 750 was first owned by Dunbar-Stanley Studios (a photography firm out of Charlotte, NC) and I'm assuming that's the customer that ordered her built.
During the transformation into Cavalier Executive Mustang she would have been completely torn down, all the military stuff stripped out, parts overhauled, and rebuilt from the major component level. The 750 had no additional fuel tanks, but did have all the "standard" Executive Mustang changes, like AeroQuip fuel lines, new hydraulic and electrical systems, had the gunports skinned over, the cockpit redone in executive style -- leather, new seats, new instrument panel, new radios and instruments. I haven't seen any "era" photos, but at that time not all the airplanes were getting the tall tail, so you might not have had one when she left Sarasota.
My understanding is that she made her way to El Salvador via a "private" sale, so Cavalier had nothing to do with making her war-ready for the FAS in 1969. The FAS website lists your airplane being acquired in December '68, so I think that the modification back to actual "warbird" must have happened in El Salvador -- probably one of the Archie Baldocci-converted airplanes.
Your bird was a Cavalier 750, a civilian factory rebuild completed circa '63. She started life with Trans-Florida Aviation circa 1958, acquired in the 2nd or third batch of surplus Mustangs that TFA purchased (I don't know precisely where she was purchased, but I believe from Mike Coutches). The first evidence I have is that your airframe was at TFA in a list of airframes published in 1959. The old FAA registry database shows that the Cavalier 750 was first owned by Dunbar-Stanley Studios (a photography firm out of Charlotte, NC) and I'm assuming that's the customer that ordered her built.
During the transformation into Cavalier Executive Mustang she would have been completely torn down, all the military stuff stripped out, parts overhauled, and rebuilt from the major component level. The 750 had no additional fuel tanks, but did have all the "standard" Executive Mustang changes, like AeroQuip fuel lines, new hydraulic and electrical systems, had the gunports skinned over, the cockpit redone in executive style -- leather, new seats, new instrument panel, new radios and instruments. I haven't seen any "era" photos, but at that time not all the airplanes were getting the tall tail, so you might not have had one when she left Sarasota.
My understanding is that she made her way to El Salvador via a "private" sale, so Cavalier had nothing to do with making her war-ready for the FAS in 1969. The FAS website lists your airplane being acquired in December '68, so I think that the modification back to actual "warbird" must have happened in El Salvador -- probably one of the Archie Baldocci-converted airplanes.
Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:26 am
Randy Haskin wrote:The old FAA registry database shows...
Ahhheemmm.... Where does one go about finding this database?
Regards,
A very curious Mike
Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:29 am
Great work Randy !
as a small addition - while down south, FAS-406 didn't have a Cavalier tail, so I'd say it's safe to claim that Vlado's ship never had this modification at all.
Best regards
Martin / Swiss Mustangs
as a small addition - while down south, FAS-406 didn't have a Cavalier tail, so I'd say it's safe to claim that Vlado's ship never had this modification at all.
Best regards
Martin / Swiss Mustangs
Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:39 am
mrhenniger wrote:Randy Haskin wrote:The old FAA registry database shows...
Ahhheemmm.... Where does one go about finding this database?
Regards,
A very curious Mike
Hi Mike
Aerofiles entry:
Trans-Florida
Trans-Florida Aviation (pres: David Lindsay), Sarasota FL.
Executive Mustang 1959 = 2p rebuild and conversion of surplus North American P-51D into a personal transport with plush, soundproofed cockpit, IFR electronics, baggage compartments in former gun bays, 402-gal fuel tanks, zero-time majored 1500hp Packard-Merlin V-1650-7; v: 457/300/97 range: 2000+ ceiling: 40,000'. $32,500, $18,000 less radio; POP: 19 reportedly under way by the end of 1959 [44-11558=N6175C, -72844=N5076K, -73027, -73260=N5075K, -73411=N550D, -73584=N51Q, -73656=N5073K, -73843=N351D, -74427, -74441, -74453, -74458/74459, -74469=N7723C, -74831, -74854, -84658=N7724C, 45-11381=N5471V, -11489=N5421V].
Cheers
Martin / Swiss Mustangs
Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:52 am
mrhenniger wrote:Where does one go about finding this database?
The database right here at the warbird registry carries much of the same information...
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51regis ... 73656.html
Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:18 am
Randy Haskin wrote:mrhenniger wrote:Where does one go about finding this database?
The database right here at the warbird registry carries much of the same information...
Actually I have been looking for a historical database of US civil registrations (N numbers) for a while now. There are a number of Vultee Valiants that I have C/Rs for, but I have been unable to connect to a c/n or s/n because I don't have access to a historical c/r database. Hence, your comment caught my attention.
Mike
FAA database
Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:16 pm
Mike,
You might look around and see if you can find some issues of the FAA Civil Air Register book. Before the database era the the FAA printed each year a set of 2 or 3 volumes as big as the Chicago phone book. These listed the Us registered aircraft by N number. I used to go to the local flight service station and look at them when I was a kid. Have not seen one since the late 60's.
Mark
Courtesy Aircraft Sales
You might look around and see if you can find some issues of the FAA Civil Air Register book. Before the database era the the FAA printed each year a set of 2 or 3 volumes as big as the Chicago phone book. These listed the Us registered aircraft by N number. I used to go to the local flight service station and look at them when I was a kid. Have not seen one since the late 60's.
Mark
Courtesy Aircraft Sales