Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:11 pm
It was impressive how Tischler srounged a few data plates and parts and made the 4 F3F's which make some claim to being authentic aircraft. Good luck finding any used parts on those airframes. My point is, Why can't someone crank up a P-38 factory building booms, pods and wings, etc and sell them as a kit like the Flug Werk FW-190?
The supply has improved on Spitfires and P-51's. WHy can't someone build up kits for the Bearcat, and P-38 which are really in demand. Just the sheet metal, landing gear and cockpit components, I would go in on one of those in a heart beat!
The supply has improved on Spitfires and P-51's. WHy can't someone build up kits for the Bearcat, and P-38 which are really in demand. Just the sheet metal, landing gear and cockpit components, I would go in on one of those in a heart beat!
Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:53 pm
A lot of these parts are already being built as required. Question is if you want a P-38 would you prefer to have one with 50% good original parts or 100% new for the same price? There are still good P-38 parts/significant projects with documented history out there, just nobody is buying yet.marine air wrote:Why can't someone crank up a P-38 factory building booms, pods and wings, etc and sell them as a kit like the Flug Werk FW-190?
As cool as a P-38 is, nearly everyone still wants a $2M Mustang over a $2M P-38. Must be the price of gas...
Would Flug Werk consider their FW-190 project a success? How many did they build? Have they sold them all? One flying so far? How many years of effort?
Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:07 pm
bdk wrote:A lot of these parts are already being built as required. Question is if you want a P-38 would you prefer to have one with 50% good original parts or 100% new for the same price? There are still good P-38 parts/significant projects with documented history out there, just nobody is buying yet.marine air wrote:Why can't someone crank up a P-38 factory building booms, pods and wings, etc and sell them as a kit like the Flug Werk FW-190?
I think it depends on the investor's wants. The P-51 is likely popular because there are many airworthy aircraft in circulation, being bought and sold regularly. Some buyers may just prefer to purchase an airworthy example and not be bothered with the time and difficulties in undertaking a full restoration. If there were to be 5 new-build P-38s suddenly on the market and ready for flight, I think they would have no trouble finding interested parties to purchase them. It's hard to say what price they'd fetch, but I have to assume there would be interest in them.
I could be wrong, however...
Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:23 pm
Well, who has the $8-10M to risk and is willing to find out?mjanovec wrote:Some buyers may just prefer to purchase an airworthy example and not be bothered with the time and difficulties in undertaking a full restoration. If there were to be 5 new-build P-38s suddenly on the market and ready for flight, I think they would have no trouble finding interested parties to purchase them. It's hard to say what price they'd fetch, but I have to assume there would be interest in them.
Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:53 pm
I thought the Atlantic coupe was a $20m car?
I was told that Ralph Lauren had bought an MB fixer upper for $1.2 or so.
No matter what kind of money these cars bring, you still cant get people to look at them as they should be.
I was at the Ralph Lauren collection display at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts not too long ago and I was amazed to see everybody rushing past the Bugatti 57's to look at the McClaren.
WTF!
This car does it for me every time I see it. Even driving around in our neighborhood.
Remember when a P-51 was expensive at $500k
Try to get a good one for twice that now.
I was told that Ralph Lauren had bought an MB fixer upper for $1.2 or so.
No matter what kind of money these cars bring, you still cant get people to look at them as they should be.
I was at the Ralph Lauren collection display at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts not too long ago and I was amazed to see everybody rushing past the Bugatti 57's to look at the McClaren.
WTF!
This car does it for me every time I see it. Even driving around in our neighborhood.
Remember when a P-51 was expensive at $500k
Try to get a good one for twice that now.
Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:10 pm
Bugattis generally leave me cold but the Type 57 Atlantique Coupe has always done it for me.
Chrysler did a project car inspired by it a few years back that really caught the spirit of the original.
I'm not convinced about the ready market for new-build P-38s. Obviously, from this side of the pond I don't know if there is an unfilled market for them in particular but over here, I believe there's been 2 or 3 fully restored Spitfires for sale for several years with no takers.
Chrysler did a project car inspired by it a few years back that really caught the spirit of the original.
I'm not convinced about the ready market for new-build P-38s. Obviously, from this side of the pond I don't know if there is an unfilled market for them in particular but over here, I believe there's been 2 or 3 fully restored Spitfires for sale for several years with no takers.
Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:48 am
I guess I'll be the first one to throw an actual warbird price into the ring. 
A particular Corsair sold a few months ago that was advertised at $2.5 million USD. Have any other warbirds sold for more than that?
A particular Corsair sold a few months ago that was advertised at $2.5 million USD. Have any other warbirds sold for more than that?
Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:59 am
I guess this kind of fits in this thread, because it is part of the cost, but how much is insurance, say on that $2.5 million Corsair?
Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:26 pm
It depends on how much you want to insure it for.
There is Liability Insurance, just like your car, for damage done to others while in operation.
There is Hull Insurance, which covers the aircraft if it gets damaged while not operating or moving. That's like if a hanger collapses on it.
Some people insure the aircraft also while it is in operation, and this is where the costs can escalate. Many only insure the airplanes during the show season (especially up North) so they can save money there.
Replacement cost due to loss while in operation can be expensive if you go for the whole $2.5 Mill. Many aircraft have some salvage value if damaged and as we know, are rebuilt to fly again, so maybe a $1 mill. policy might be enough to get the aircraft fixed if damaged.
Don't forget, pilot skill and experience comes in to play when deciding how much insurance will cost.
I don't have a number, but you can see, it gets complicated and I doubt that there is a set insurance price for any particular aircraft.
I'm sure someone on WIX will give you a ballpark number, I still rent aircraft!
Jerry
There is Liability Insurance, just like your car, for damage done to others while in operation.
There is Hull Insurance, which covers the aircraft if it gets damaged while not operating or moving. That's like if a hanger collapses on it.
Some people insure the aircraft also while it is in operation, and this is where the costs can escalate. Many only insure the airplanes during the show season (especially up North) so they can save money there.
Replacement cost due to loss while in operation can be expensive if you go for the whole $2.5 Mill. Many aircraft have some salvage value if damaged and as we know, are rebuilt to fly again, so maybe a $1 mill. policy might be enough to get the aircraft fixed if damaged.
Don't forget, pilot skill and experience comes in to play when deciding how much insurance will cost.
I don't have a number, but you can see, it gets complicated and I doubt that there is a set insurance price for any particular aircraft.
I'm sure someone on WIX will give you a ballpark number, I still rent aircraft!
Jerry
Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:30 pm
Wow... forget about the actual price, it is the insurance that makes me pretty sure I'll never be able to own one! 
Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:22 pm
Unfortunately, it seems, skill and experience do not decrease the price of insurance. Skill and experience will enable one to get the insurance in the first place. Or approved and acceptable (by the insurance company) training would also enable one to get the insurance.
VL
VL
Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:07 pm
Rob Mears wrote:I guess I'll be the first one to throw an actual warbird price into the ring.
A particular Corsair sold a few months ago that was advertised at $2.5 million USD. Have any other warbirds sold for more than that?
Just wondering. Even if advertised for a certain amount, are we sure it actually went for that figure???
T J
Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:10 pm
I imagine that the purchase price for the B-17 Fuddy Duddy was right up there.
Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:47 pm
Hi: I think you have to factor in the invesment price such as Glacier Girl. Some of the restoration costs must be staggering Many of the warbirds never change hands and if they did what would they sell for?Most restoration costs far exceed the market value of the a/c. Some of the current restorations of war-time crashes,recoverys from Russia,the South Pacific ect. have been nothing short of amazing but is the final cost more than you can expect to recover on the open market? The warbird market is limited to the people that have the means to invest in something that can disapear in a blink of an eye. Its prohibitive for most of us to own a small spam can let alone a Gas guzzling very expensive warbird. Now times that by a large collection of them and well you get the idea. As for building new P-38s how many can you sell at the roll out price that would be far beyond the selling price of an original? P-51s are doing well but thats what everyone wants and much easier and smaller a/c to build. With limited buyers,high restoration,maintanance/operating costs the idea of massproduction of any WW2 a/c is but a dream.Thanks Mike
Many of the warbirds never change hands and if they did what would they sell for?Most restoration costs far exceed the market value of the a/c. Some of the current restorations of war-time crashes,recoverys from Russia,the South Pacific ect. have been nothing short of amazing but is the final cost more than you can expect to recover on the open market? The warbird market is limited to the people that have the means to invest in something that can disapear in a blink of an eye. Its prohibitive for most of us to own a small spam can let alone a Gas guzzling very expensive warbird. Now times that by a large collection of them and well you get the idea. As for building new P-38s how many can you sell at the roll out price that would be far beyond the selling price of an original? P-51s are doing well but thats what everyone wants and much easier and smaller a/c to build. With limited buyers,high restoration,maintanance/operating costs the idea of massproduction of any WW2 a/c is but a dream.Thanks Mike