Hi Guys - we need to put our backs into this site

[setter]

Hi all

First of all I am posting this out of genuine affection for all of you and for this site so don't misinterpret anything I am saying or have any negative thoughts at all about this post..

Scott and a lot of you have done a fantastic job on this site over the years and rescued the drama after previous sites under other hands failed and it is a fantastic resource for all of us.

I am a little worried that some are drifting away for various reasons and I feel that some of these have to do with the fact that some people find it difficult to live with the opinions others put up here and the way they put those opinions.

I can understand that view BUT the world is a big place and people ARE diverse in their opinion and behaviours. Please don't confuse strident behaviour or opinion with fact - it is just the other persons view and how they deliver it is just their approach to life. This diversity is important and educational - value it don't decry it - share - dont't retreat from it.

I work in IT but my "profession" is Customer Service /Welfare and I see this diversity every day at meetings, in shops, in the street - even my own cat has her own strident opinion!!

There are people on this site whom I don't always agree with and who certainly go over the top and who get into all sorts of trouble but I have taken the time to talk to them off line and discuss our shared passion and I now count them as friends - I reccomend it you Will surprise yourself with what you learn.

So the point of all this is that there are people out there who used to post and who now just lerk because they feel that they are likely to be offended or hurt by comments - PLEASE get back in the game WE ALL value your contribution and presence.

The great thing about the Forum is that we are all equal and what you say counts a lot and as much as the last poster and as much as the next one so POST POST POST - lets hearwhat YOU have to say NOW

PS I personally appologise for my sense of humor in advance but I am not going to change it.

Your in Gratitude

Kindest regards
Dr John Parker

[Steve T]

John--

Thanks for that. Now that I'm online at home I try to post whenever I think I have anything (however cockeyed) to offer; my reticence previously was because I could only visit WIX either illicitly at work or at my parents' place (they beat me into home-computerdom by about two years)...If I refrain, as I sometimes do, it's because I genuinely don't believe my posting would add anything to the thread. But then I'm not the confrontational type, either. Watching the confrontational type in action is entertaining, though, and can also be quite enlightening! There's room for all of us on here; we're all passionate about this stuff...as long as there is at least a modicum of respect afforded, surely just about anything goes. We're really all in the same (flying-)boat...

Cheers--and thanx, Scott, for WIX...

S.

[setter]

Hi Steve

Thanks for that - thats exactly what I meant - everybody should enjoy the Forum and extract the positives from it and contribute as they see fit as you just did - Exactly what I meant - GREAT !!!!

And yes Scott - I often forget to say thanks to the person who makes this possible - Thanks

John

PS I love Canada - some of my best holidays - ever

[bdk]

Good post Setter. There is quite a variety of ages and nationalities as well as maturity levels represented on this board. For the most part, we all get along despite the occasional disagreement.

That being said, I have yet to see the typical testosterone induced pissing contest on this board that I have seen on others. I think the maturity level here is very high.

I happen to have very strong opinions on many subjects. I try to temper them by using my best Dale Carnegie learned techniques, but sometimes my comments may still be misunderstood or misconstrued.

Nonetheless, without hearing the opinions of others I have no way of understanding an alternate perspective. I have learned a lot and revised some of my views based on what I have read here. I very much appreciate every posting that is made here. I may not agree or may not be interested in each and every post, but as a group we are that much poorer for every post that is NOT made.

Discussing particular battles and whose bullet actually shot down the Red Baron is not my bag- owning, operating, restoring, and recovering warbirds is. I only hope we can take what is posted on this board and use it for the common good of our mutual hobby/obsession!

Find 'Em- Then Keep 'Em Flying!

Brandon

[setter]

Hi BDK

Again - Great reply - there is nothing to fear in participating - we give and take what we are able to and each contribution adds to the collective whole and advances us as a group and as individuals.

As you say because of this forum I know a hell of a lot more and I have met some great and enduring friends .

I think we all understand that you are a stalwart of this site and highly respected as such - Thanks

Kindest regards
John

[Don Martin]

John,
First I have to say thanks to his Royal Exhalted Editorness, Scott, for a place for all the warbird nuts, both active and hangers on( ) to meet and share information and knowledge on my favorite subject. I have only joined this august body since the switch although I was a lurker before. I have to agree John that there is a very wide variety of personality types evident here. It's amaizing how broad of a range of opinions are represented on this board, with the exception that everyone agrees that Warbirds and Classic Aircraft need to be restored, perserved for generations to come. We as a group( and I use the term loosely as I personally have not had the opportunity to help in this matter) have a louder voice, even with differing opinions then each individual would ever have. And the louder the voice the more people will hear and the more people who hear our voice will make it possible to recover and perserve more aircraft worldwide. Having once been involved with an"Aviation" museum with another WIXer who will reMaine nameless(that's another story) , I know how hard it can be to get everyone to just agree that the sun rises in the east. With a common goal, well, you never can tell what will happen. Or to quote somebody or other, "That's our opinion, we welcome yours!" John, you hit the head right on the nail!
As Always
Don

[Jeffrey]

Col, I do not know what it is that has you questioning your worth on any board but although we have shared some differing views on some things, methods of procurement mostly, even I know we both share some views. namely that the airframes being left to corrode to dust should not be left to this fate but saved and preserved for future generations before any more damage is done to them. It is the one small fact that we share a love of warbirds that makes inclusion of anyone, well almost as there are some whose attitudes are so corrosive to everyone that they should be restricted, within a forum such as this worthwhile.
it is only by the free exchange of ideas and opinions and such that we gain the knowledge and assistance of those we need to achieve such ends as the preservation of warbirds, the same as the restoration of them is not the work of one man normally then neither can the garnering of the information used to recover them.
the regrettable part is that, as in any area where there are even 2 people there will be frictions between the people involved ( heard it said once that if you have 2 people you'll get 3 opinions ). it is in the peacefull and acceptable resolution of these disputes that our maturity shows through and progress is achieved.

all I can say further to that is thanks Scott for providing an area where the conversation of such things and the successful resolution of such things is possible. I know I'd feel lost without being able to air my opinions or possibly even aid others through here, as small as my contributions might be.

[setter]

Hi Rob

Everyone on this thread knows that the thread is NOT directed at you but at intollerance of people like you. I value your friendship as does everyone who takes the time to get to know you - sure you go over the Top but that speaks to your passion for all things Warbirds.

When in the far distant future I shuffle off this mortal coil I hope you are one of the people (Moxie in Hand) gathered around in my study fighting over my photo collection and Spitfire instrument pannel.

True friends transcend all - you are a true friend
John

[Cees Broere]

Ahem, I also feel that this thread is also meant for me regarding what a said a few days ago on the FlyPast forum and that made Robbie's knickers go into a twist.

Well, I have said earlier that I personally don't like the tone how some opinions are aired and I have also mentioned that semi-political jokes are long past their bedtime after months of over-usage. Then again that's just my opinion and it's not (or has been) my intention to drive Rob away from the FP-forum. I haven't sent him a PM because I did not regret what a said and still don't.

We are all entitled to an opinon and we are all different, which makes it a lot more interesting. I just want to refer to the earlier thread started by Tony King about the shifting of the balance towards bla bla bla..... It's still off and we all must contribute to regain the WIX-feeling (which I am missing a bit as you know). I just read some of the post by John and I was immediately drawn to reply so the animal magnetism was revived.


Perhaps if we start this kind of thread every now and then we can use some self-critisism to make some course corrections if needed.

just my two eurocents

Cheers

Cees

[bdk]

Regarding politics, I would like to add that there is little that will derail civility among acquaintances than that subject. The U.S. is at war and as we know there are many different opinions about that war, both domestically and abroad. Added to that is the current election cycle which further charges the situation, something that may not be fully appreciated by WIXers in other countries.

My recommendation is to avoid politics at all costs, except those that directly have an effect on WARBIRDS- i.e. let's stay on topic.

Remember the discussion board that Scott created on the old forum regarding the war? Maybe that "other" discussion board needs one of those...

Now go to the Nav-Ops board for my next post which regards politics that do have a direct effect on warbirds.

[Cees Broere]

Regarding politics, I would like to add that there is little that will derail civility among acquaintances than that subject. The U.S. is at war and as we know there are many different opinions about that war, both domestically and abroad. Added to that is the current election cycle which further charges the situation, something that may not be fully appreciated by WIXers in other countries.

My recommendation is to avoid politics at all costs, except those that directly have an effect on WARBIRDS- i.e. let's stay on topic.

Remember the discussion board that Scott created on the old forum regarding the war? Maybe that "other" discussion board needs one of those...

Now go to the Nav-Ops board for my next post which regards politics that do have a direct effect on warbirds.

Brad,

I only wish to let you know that the neo-political input I was referring to has nothing to do with the current election of GWB and JFK. I don't give a **** about the mudthrowing there.

But what I do mind is the general opinion that America has against the rest of the world and think that the good old U S of A has to solve the problems in the world because the other countries (Europe in my case) cannot take care for themselves. Okay, this is global politics and has nothing to do with WIX or my intrest in warbirds, so is no issue here, but I just wanted to let you know to explain things.

What I do mind is that this board is used to air feelings (how humourous they may be, but that's a matter of opinion) about militia, republic and people calling themselves Colonel, Captain, Air Marshal or toilet cleaner private first class. People who raise a question about a certain recovery or how a certain recovery should be handled, can expect to receive a salvo from the Snowball Republic of Maine in which the words: Navy, Law, UNESCO, lawyer, we know what to do etc......., is used frequently. I'm not having a go at the bad spelling mind you.

That is what I mean about things that make the hairs in my neck stand up everytime I read that, as it immediately links this to my dislike of the general (political) way how people are being told how to do things. I know I am used to think first before acting and generally try to use my common sense, perhaps that's why I am a little too sensitive about that..

Now, I am probably the only one who is offended by that so I am not going to start a crusade against this so no problem here but it has some implications regarding the freqency of my checking this forum (unaffected I hasten to add) or the number of posts I generate (affected I must admit).

I hope I have made things clear (again)

Cheers

Cees

[Cees Broere]

Rob,

I do not wish to repeat what I have said earlier. There is no need to defend yourself, just read my earlier posts carefully and it should all be selfexplanatory. I like you as a person and have great respect for what you do, but stop hiding behind laws, rules and regulations..... and don't treat me like a bloody fool, as things are sometimes different on this side of the pond my dear chap.

Don't get me started about UNESCO, our museum is housed in an UNESCO-listed building but after having made several attempts in getting some sort of plan to enable the building to survive the next 100 years, there is no reply from their side.

Just to give some background, I have fifteen years of experience in aircraft recovery in the field and that includes finding and bringing home missing persons. I have dealt with ambassadors, the Dutch and British MOD, unwilling mayors and guys in suits and I know that to reach your goal you have to be civil, both in speech, dress and in action. These guys read these forums too you know. I know our website is regularly checked by the Dutch Ministry of Internal Affairs. But I don't feel any desire to tell others what to do.........

Forgive me for my bad grasp of English.

Cheers

Cees

[setter]

Hi Cees and Rob

I think all of this is really healthy and I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness.

As to the stuff about Militas etc - Cees I have a different sense of humor - I grew up in the 50-70s (I an 51) and in Australia at that time we developed a very irreverant style and Sense of humor - then the war (My war Vietnam) happened and I saw and did things nobody should ever have to do with pure politics as a driver - which I strongly believe it was. So I guess my sense of humor and irreverance is reflected from my life experiance and my upbringing and we are probably not too disimilar in our political attitudes (internationally at least) As a Senior burecrat I also have a healthy ? dislike of political intrigue. I took on the AVM tag as that was my service tag as I was always trying to do the "right thing"and as I was being sent up by the troops that was what they called me. It didn't last long when I got there.... and I don't regard Military authority very highly anymore so that is why I tend to send it up - as I said my sense of humor is a little dark

I have seen much of your work over the years and have participated in my own small way in similar activities in PNG and I have tremendous respect for you as I do for Rob.

Nobody reading the header post should have assumed it was directed at any one person - I thought I had made that clear - I genuinely respect and admire everybody who participates and we need to get away from personal finger pointing -

Cees when I do eventually shuffle off - You get the Spitfire instrument Pannel - you have earn't it - it belonged to a very rare breed of man.

Yours in the brotherhood

Kindest regards
John P

[bdk]

But what I do mind is the general opinion that America has against the rest of the world and think that the good old U S of A has to solve the problems in the world because the other countries (Europe in my case) cannot take care for themselves.

Thank you for acting as the spokesperson for US foreign policy.

If you want to discuss politics, please feel free to contact me at any time. Maybe we can discuss at length how things reached the current state of affairs.

What I do mind is that this board is used to air feelings (how humourous they may be, but that's a matter of opinion) about militia, republic and people calling themselves Colonel, Captain, Air Marshal or toilet cleaner private first class.

Is this an issue of political correctness? I'm sure Scott could turn off that function if you felt that was a negative influence on the WIX membership in general. If it would keep you here, I would be all for it. I don't find that function especially valuable.

The militia postings themselves I have found to be time wasters for me so I just ignore them, but they seem to entertain those people involved. Perhaps they should be taken off board (weren't they already in the off-topic section?) if they are having a negative effect on the general WIX membership.

People who raise a question about a certain recovery or how a certain recovery should be handled, can expect to receive a salvo from the Snowball Republic of Maine in which the words: Navy, Law, UNESCO, lawyer, we know what to do etc......., is used frequently.

This seems to be directed at Rob, but he is only giving his opinion. He is not telling you what to do (he has no authority in the US, let alone Holland!), and he is not posting to disrupt anyone's recovery plans. If your plans are so sensitive as to be disrupted by third parties thousands of miles away, I would not post them- and I am not aware that Rob has ever threatened anyone with punitive action. There may be others far less vocal than Rob that have sinister intentions to disrupt your plans, but I have no knowledge of those things.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your issue?

I'm not having a go at the bad spelling mind you.

Flattery will get you nowhere with Rob!

That is what I mean about things that make the hairs in my neck stand up everytime I read that, as it immediately links this to my dislike of the general (political) way how people are being told how to do things.

Has this happened on the WIX board or that other one? Please PM me an example so that I may better understand your point.

I hope I have made things clear (again)

As far as I am concerned, the only way to clarify these things is to discuss them! We need you right here for that.

And by the way, my name isn't Brad... That's another guy in a far away place busting his backside to keep my family safe.

Thanks for reading,

Brandon

[Gregory]

Dear all,

As an American living in Europe, I would tend to side with Cees. The American "can-do" attitude looks very different from this side of the pond. Please consider the following as an attempt to clarify things, rather than to pass judgement.

In 20+ years in the aircraft preservation movement, I have personally seen (some - not all) Americans walk in and demand aircraft on the assumption that they, and only they, can and will save them. Unfortunately, this attitude spreads to virtually every other field, making relationships much more difficult than they used to be.

In the old days, I would travel the world on my US passport. When I was in Brazil last month, it almost got me arrested. I was taken to the police, fingerprinted, photographed etc just to get in. My host, a most pleasant Air Force colonel, said "Nothing personal - but the US has started doing this to Brazilians and we are only returning the favor." The Brazilians - what security threat do they pose to the US?

Having wrestled with our own bureaucracies to see some projects through, I can understand the frustration we sometimes face. But I agree with Cees - charging head down is seldom the solution. Also, it is a fact that the US Navy is not a major concern in Europe, for the very good reason that US activity here was a largely Army affair. And we all know that they, and the Air Force, have a different policy. (Of course, the day I find an SB-2C over here it'll be a different story ...)

Believe it or not, there are different cultures and attitudes. Those which Americans display towards the rest of the world are not always the most flattering. There is a lingering sense of superiority, a sense that money will prevail over law, and even that all anyone is interested is "the pig payola" (as someone wrote on this board). Whereas the Americans are just interested in history and preservation.

Well - it ain't so. Many Europeans (and Brazilians etc.) are interested in it too. And many Americans are in it for the money - we have read the interesting story of a P-51 on this board, just a few days ago. We all know of some funny trading in aircraft, bogus parts etc.

Don't get me wrong (1) - the Americans are NOT worse than any others. The Europeans (if such a thing exists, Cees- we are still an Italian and a Dutchman) are NOT better than anyone else. We are all the same mixed bag of good and bad, idealists and pragmatists, enthusiasts and speculators. But that is precisely why the "chip on the shoulder" attitude can be so upsetting and off-putting to others.

Don't get me wrong (2) - I am grateful, and most of us still are, for having been freed by the USA in WW2. But we also find it difficult to reconcile certain now-attitudes and now-mindsets with those of those brave GIs and airmen and sailors 60 years ago.

'nuff said. Let's go back to aeroplanes (Rob - note the correct spelling ...)

happy landings to all,

Gregory

Last edited by Gregory on Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.