Warbird Information Exchange

That's them.

They are really nice cylinders, but quite pricey.

Gary

There is a recent invention of modified R-2800 cylinders for the R-1340. Aero Engines quoted about $70K for an overhaul with those cylinders compared to about $30K using the cylinders I had. Are you sure they are making them or just offering them?

"even knew how to use a slide rule"
Actually I do know how to use one.
Thanks to electronics school in the early 70's.
Anyway I really thank you all for the good advice.
I wanted to mention that these different out fits that can fabricate replacement parts, most do not do that in house, it is outsourced.

"machining is accomplished on state-of-the-art CNC machining centers to provide a level of design conformity that equals or exceeds the original production cylinder." I do this daily, Its not the machine even nowadays its still the guy operating it and editing and programming it. They will turn out junk parts just like the old manual machines of the old days.
And from personal experience, I feel the quality was better back in the manual machine days. It just didn't happen as fast as it can on a CNC machine. And the cutter and material science wasn't what it is now.

I have been watching this thread for a while and giving it a lot of thought. For my money, (no pun intended) it's not dollars that is the limiting factor. Just read what is written here, you can go NW to P#$%(*!@ with a pile of cash and still not get what you are looking for. I have been waiting for over a year to have a certain shop (I don't drink Red Bull, but would start if it would speed things up) to become available to put the dual controls in my AD. It is all about EXPERTISE. It's a human factor. There are only a very few shops/people that have the know how to do most of the jobs I need done. And the supply of these folks are far more limited than financial resources.

The other limiting factor is insurance. It doesn't matter how much money you have, you never have enough to go without liability protection, which in some cases is not available at any price. As a matter of fact, the more money you have the worse your liability problem becomes.

You can't figure an easy way out of either of those situations , even with a slide rule.

To provide engguy with a little background, I operate a Wright 975, PW1340 and Wright R3350. Seldom do my biggest headaches come from any of these. The migraines always come from something bolted to them or one-off hydraulic something or anothers custom built for Douglas and never used on anything else. Ever!

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

I agree with Eric wholeheartedly in the last 2 years I have had to replace 2 carbs, 6 mags,(actually the same 2 three times), 4 coils on the 2800, and both header tank seals on the Mustang. Both engines have less then 100 hours since total rebuild including all accessories and this is just what I can remember off the top of my head. It doesn't include all the other regular maintenance and leaks. Suppliers of accessories are definitely failing to provide quality rebuilds.

Insurance is ridiculously expensive so most go without hull. And nothing you can do will stop the wife of a deceased passenger from sueing your widow and leaving your kids with nothing of what you worked so hard for all your life. So I rarely give rides anymore and when I do the only thing I feel will help is to look the passenger and his family in the eyes and explain to them that a 60 year old fighter is not as safe as the airlines and I go so far as to ask them to not sue my family if something should happen.
Remember you can only get $100,000 coverage on the rear seat passenger. In todays world that won't last 2 weeks in the hospital, let alone the rest of the lawsuit costs. I have heard lately that some insurance companies are simply throwing the policy limits on the table and walking away, leaving the insured to fend for themselves in court.

Insurance, warranty or what ever, it doesn't seem to matter.
Just look at the failures with FiFi.
So how many more freash overhaul failures are there that you all know about? Its like some of these folks have been saying. Its who's doing the work. And what kind of care goes into it. People that do certain things for a JOB, usually are so sick of it, the care factor is not there.
Like some parts I had worked on awhile back, they came back needing some nicks removed, no its not an aircraft part but still the example is there. So just because its a big well known facility that doesn't mean its a house of quality. Thats what I have seen here so far. Think its bad now wait till they decide to move to a country where the labor is cheaper.
Like some of the large jet overhaul facilities. I read things about how lax the other countries are on the faa rules. And besides what kinda quality can an underpaid over worked person put out?
Gosh for that matter I think the usa shops don't pay their assembly mechanics all that much either, at least the ones that work on the relic radials. I'm curious what do they make? Anyway I thank you for the replys that have been recieved so far.

Thank You Gary for the intel. I have to ask what other costs will be incurred by the plane being down for so long? Will other systems need to be refurbished from the lack of regular operation etc?

Thank You

Couldn't tell you what it's gonna cost us to have FIFI down for so long. All I can tell you is that there are lots of people (particularly accountants and some of the aging Squadron members) that aren't happy about it and let me know it.

I will certainly inspect all of the other systems on the aircraft before it returns to flight. It will essentially just go back to square one as far as the inspection process is concerned.

Gary

Coming into this a bit late. First off, *any* engine shop can build a grenade, whether due to Monday morning blahs, or a bad part, or whatever. The real deal is how they stand up when the thing craters out. I can attest that, for example, Covington stands not behind, but right next to their work. By that I mean that I am aware of two seperate instances where they o/h'd a 1340 that later had significant problems. They sent a guy out found and fixed the problem. N/C.

Having said that, I totally agree that other shops are shall we say, less than professional about their warranty. Guess the diesel stuff pays better and isn't as hard.

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Regards,

Jase
www.b26marauder.com
"I'm having a BLAST!!" 2007 CAF Wing Staff Conference

RIP Gary Austin..always in our hearts

Jase, I agree with your last statement. I would say with the low demand for overhauled large recip AC engines, and that a few returns would pretty much break the bank at even the large facilities. That alone would contribute to a huge lack in honoring any supposed warranty. And like what happened to those fifi engines, most likely the overhauller used every excuse in the book to not have to honor their warranty.
This day and age you are never going to see the kind of quality that you did years ago. Why? Its simple, they all just flat don't have the time for it. It doesn't matter what kind of repair or manufacturing business it is these days. It is way worse than it was say 20 years ago. Its push push hurry hurry, ie "fast paced work environment". In most all kinds of shops workers are forced to stand for hours. If you are getting up there in age, how can you do "quality" anything if you are in constant pain. And the younger ones basically don't give a rip about quality. The bottom line is, if an outfit is in this business to make money, there will be low quality, and there will be worthless warrantees. There is no making money overhauling these engines anymore. Those days are gone. Well unless the outfit is charging the cost of a large overhauled Jet engine.
And Jase your probably correct there is more demand and more money to be made and way less rules and regulations to follow, rebuilding diesel engines, saying nothing about the work being much easier, and parts and assembly being much less critical.
I have always thought it funny how someone "thinks" they are getting the best job done, because it is a big fancy shop. I have worked side by side in aircraft parts shops, with lots of care nots, that handle these parts like you would scrap metal.

Hey there engguy...I feel your pain I have been doing CNC machining for the medical industry for about 15 years now and believe it or not, I see the same things creeping into our industry as what you are talking about. It is no longer a matter of how well you can make it, but rather how fast can you make it Or how much money can you save by vending it out to a 3rd world country. I often wonder how the German auto makers and the Swiss watch makers do what they do so well? They seem to have taken the ancient American style of thinking that quality is the driving factor in manufacturing their products and they are still making a decent profit as people are always willing to pay for quality. Good luck with your endeavor...if ya need another old, tired, balding machinist who still takes great pride in his work, gimme a holler

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Earn my respect and never lose it.
Demand my respect and never gain it. -Me

...just another plane dreamer.

Also please don't understate the fact that most FAA repair stations are getting away with Inspectors that have only Repairmen certificates (no A&P school, no written exams, no FAA oral & practical exams) that are simply not qualified to sign FAA 8130-3's and return most items to service. Most smaller shops cannot afford to (or will not) hire licensed A&P mechanics that have the education, training and most importantly the ethics to prevent substandard work from being "signed off". I reccomend most aircraft owners to actually visit the shops they send work to (even accessory shops) and informally "audit" them. Ask how many A&P's are employed, how long the chief inspector has been employed there (if they even have one designated), is there a real quality control department, what the general condition of the shop looks like (dirty, disorganized)? Additionally get friendly with the local FAA FSDO (flight standard district office) and PMI (principal maintenance inspector) they are responsible for inspection and enforcement of the rules and regulations of the FAA. It is your property and your money that is going to these Repair Stations, if a shop will not respect that avoid them at all costs!

A&P, and in many instances that means pretty much nothing.
I have worked side by side with A&P'ed certified people, that know absoluty nothing about engines. I ask a simple question and the answer is Dahhhhh yeah I remember learning something about that!!!!!
Now maybe that person can still drive a rivet or something, but you sure wouldn't want them overhaulling an engine for an aircraft, let alone your lawn mower. And agree with VCS1, alot of people that are in an industry no matter what it is, are just simply there because it was a job opening, and they needed the bucks. And it aint gona get no better, just look at the ad's for technical and skilled jobs. And the outsource it to some other country attitude, is not going to fix a problem, yeah it will be cheaper, ha ha ha, just like one machine shop I know of that bought a nice foreign made angle plate, it was only outa square and warped by about 1/8 inch or so. So the FAA wouldn't let someone like me do the work but would look the other way letting an overhaulled engine from that same country(that made the warpped angle plate) be sold and used here. Ya all ever wonder why ya have so much trouble with the newer cars these days? Foreign country outsourcing. Hmmm I know where most of the automotive spark plugs are made now, are the aircraft ones from there also? And any shop that does a good job, (like I said overhauling large ac engines is not a money making adventure) will have to charge astronomical prices to break even. You know there is the wages, the rent, the utilities, the insurances, and the benifits for the employees etc.
I'm just suprised that a 2800 overhaul isn't in the $500,000 range yet.
How can those big outfits keep hanging on, when the work is so spotty?
And when they have waranty returns? And then again how will we ever be able keep these old aircraft in flyable condition when the cost of overhauling the engine is about what the original cost was to develope and manufacuter the engines in the begining. And again how many millions will it cost to get fifi in the air again? I think something is amiss

scott, i'd say your gravitating bang for the buck is pretty accurate.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

6trn4brn
Your statement, "I often wonder how the German auto makers and the Swiss watch makers do what they do so well?"
Caught my eye after rereading stuff here. I'm not sure about the Swiss watch makers, but I know those German cars aren't all that anymore, I remember some years back BMW's were blowing engines like crazy.
Here's one of the sites that has some info on that, http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm evidently alot of them were having bearing failures, Hmmm makes one wonder what 3rd world country BMW engines or parts were made in? Typical of what I have been saying. Once all the supposed "quality war bird engine overhaul outfits like the one Retro said did the (sarcasticly speaking) top quality overhauled R-3350 engines for FiFi" are all gone from the scene, and the nice 3rd world war bird engine overhaul facilities take over then what you have now for quality will be logarithmicly worse. Does anyone even care?