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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:38 pm 
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I do the same with my wife, parents, and friends. It is also in my will that I do not wish to go after anyone if those events were to happen to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:32 pm 
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The woman bears some responsibility for getting into a vehicle(Stearman) she knew nothing about, flying with a pilot of unknown abilities and asking him to do aerobatics, again knowing nothing about his abilities.
When I got married I told my wife never to fly with anyone unless we knew them, and I gave her a couple of names of particulary bad pilots to avoid at fly-ins.
The pilot has to live with his stupid mistake. As pilot in command, you have a responsibility to protect all lives on board the aircraft, no exceptions. The Stearman is very blind, particularly looking forward over the cylinders that stick out farther than the fuselage. We owned 2 Stearmans and I never flew below 500' AGL. because there are lots of small towers and transmission lines if you get much below that.
He's not in trouble for flying a warbird, it's 100% for violating the FAR's for no good reason with fatal results.


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 Post subject: ?????
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:59 pm 
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The woman bears some responsibility for getting into a vehicle(Stearman) she knew nothing about, flying with a pilot of unknown abilities and asking him to do aerobatics, again knowing nothing about his abilities.
When I got married I told my wife never to fly with anyone unless we knew them, and I gave her a couple of names of particulary bad pilots to avoid at fly-ins.

That statement is dead on and brings back a not so pleasent memory.
When I was young my mentor Ed was the master of the AT-6 he knew the airplane in and out, understood it and flew it like the pro he was. I was of the opinion that everyone who flew a firebreathing warbird was the same way. But, it's just not true. One day I came close to dying and luckily just had the cr*p scarred out of me.
Before the final groundloop we left the runway at another airport going through big chuck holes I was sure were going to rip the gear out. But my friend X jerked her off into a nose high, wing shaking/shuttering attitude and some how flew her out and wandered around aimlessly for about 30 minutes headed for home to violent ground loop. He doesn't fly T-6s and much at all anymore. What I'm trying to say is know your pilot or at least get a good recommandation from someone in the know.
Not everyone is Chuck Gardner or JCW. Remember, I learned the hardway so you don't have to! It was a long 30 minutes wondering if the 2nd landing attempt would be better than the first. It wasn't!

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 Post subject: accident
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:23 pm 
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It is a good idea to know who you are flying with, not just their ability, but their judgement. You can watch them fly or ask around. But I strongly disagree that is was the woman's fault that she did not know how to evaluate the ride. I expect the pilot was probably a good one and just made a mistake that turned tragic. I doubt if very many of us would turn down a good ride at an event even if we did not know the pilot. If a Bi17 pulls up with a seat availble most anyone would go. By the way, I misread the notice and I thought the passenger was a child, instead of 39.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:06 am 
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Have to disagree with you Marine Air................the "event" 'supplied' these volunteer pilots to give rides. The unsuspecting public would have no reason to believe that these pilots were not qualified, otherwise they wouldn't be there giving rides. Also, the issue appears to be one of low level flying and judgement, not acro.

The issue of telling your loved ones that if I die in a warbird...it's ok...don't sue...................according to a number of my lawyer friends doesn't mean a thing. Your loved ones can still sue the estate of the one who done ya in. You, me, anyone, can not give away the rights of others. includig the right to sue if they beleive they have been wronged.

Glenn

(standing back taking cover and waiting for the responses to fly.)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:32 am 
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I agree with the prety much every thing you guys are saying. This is a gray area. If it was my wife for example that was killed in the ride, I would be in a fix. I love warbirds, and aviation all around. If it was an accident, I don't think I would even consider it, but know your wife is dead becuase someone was being wreckless with their aricraft. It does make you upset. But personally speaking, I would not sue, for one reason and that is the impact that it would have on the warbird community.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:32 am 
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warbirddriver wrote:
The issue of telling your loved ones that if I die in a warbird...it's ok...don't sue...................according to a number of my lawyer friends doesn't mean a thing. Your loved ones can still sue the estate of the one who done ya in. You, me, anyone, can not give away the rights of others. includig the right to sue if they beleive they have been wronged.

Glenn

(standing back taking cover and waiting for the responses to fly.)


I understand that as well. Lawyers are able to get around pretty much anything including a signed hold harmless. I just wanted to make sure my family understands my wishes...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:38 am 
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Just remember. It matters not what YOU want or dsire. In this case it is in the hands of law enforcement the DA and the FAA. The DA waited until they had the FAA report and then decided to prosecute. The FAA calls a spade a spade in their investigation and don't care what comes after. Law enforcment just goes out and picks you up. Nobody has a say in this. Insurance is the same way. Even if you say you don't want to sue or your family to sue and they honor that request you are still screwed because once the insurance company makes a payment its out of your hands and they will try and recover their loss any way they can. That means you go to court. How many of you stearman owners are using the dusters an sprayers ball fuel shutoff valve? The correct valve is the D3 but usable ones are hard to find. The dusters an spryer valve works but its not PMAed nor STCed that in itself can invalidate YOUR insurance and leave you and your IA open to the lawsuit when something happens reguardless, becase the acft was no longer maintained to the Type Cirtificate Data Sheet. Unfortunately the empty mustang back seats will be more common as the leagal system takes out those with any $$.. I am very carefull any more as I am way to close to retirement to give it all to a lawer or insurance company.. just food for thought


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 Post subject: ??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:42 am 
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But I strongly disagree that is was the woman's fault

Marine Air never said it was her fault but she put herself into a situation where she had no control over or knowledge of. On my wall at work here is a photo of the smashed T-6 I was in. I'm glad I'm here to look at it!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:27 am 
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An Update...
From ANN:
Quote:
Wisconsin Pilot Takes Plea Deal In Fatal Accident Surviving Spouse Agrees To Reduced Sentence

Another chapter was added this week
to the sad tale of a 2004 plane crash at a charity balloon rally in
Wisconsin. The husband of the woman lost in the crash agreed to
support a plea deal, that drastically reduced the amount of time
the pilot may need to spend in prison.

As ANN reported, Mark Strub
offered to take passengers in his 1941 PT-13 Stearman biplane
on 10-minute rides during the Children's Miracle Network Balloon
Rally in Wisconsin Rapids, for a suggested donation of $10. While
giving Kimberly Reed a ride in the vintage aircraft, the plane
struck power lines, and came to rest inverted in the Wisconsin
River. Strub survived the accident, but he wasn't able to free
Reed, who suffered a broken neck.

According to the NTSB Probable Cause report on the crash, Strub
said he had given three people free rides prior to the accident
flight. Reed has asked for an aerobatic flight, so with both
persons wearing parachutes the plane departed, and climbed to 3,000
feet AGL.

After performing one Cuban eight, a loop, and two hammerhead
stalls, Strub and Reed were heading back to the airport, at an
altitude of about 50 feet over the water when the aircraft struck
the lines, and flipped into the Nepco Lake.

FAA aviation safety inspector Karen Krueger testified in a
criminal complaint Strub violated regs governing minimum safe
altitude, as well as a regulation from a section titled "Careless
or Reckless Operation of an Aircraft."

Strub was brought up on a charge of negligent homicide in the
crash last March, to which he initially pleaded not guilty. That
trial was to start next month... but on Tuesday, Strub pleaded no
content to the reduced misdemeanor charges of negligent operation
of a motor vehicle, and disorderly conduct. Strub had faced a
10-year maximum sentence if the case had gone to trial, reports the
Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune.

Now, Strub faces a maximum prison sentence of nine months in
jail on the first charge, and 90 days for disorderly conduct...
though in the plea deal, both sides reportedly agreed to two years
probation, as well as fines, court costs and counseling for Strub.
There remains the possibility of jail time, however, as the court
is not bound to honor the plea deal.

Wood County District Attorney Todd Wolf said he chose to accept
the plea agreement after meeting with witnesses, and talking to
Kimberly Reed's widower, Kevin... who reportedly said he wanted
Strub held responsible for the crash, but he didn't want to relive
the incident by going through a trial.

A sentencing hearing will be held February 5. Strub still faces
a civil case regarding the accident.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:58 am 
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This is one where you don't blame the FAA, the Lawyers, the ANYTHING other than the PILOT..........

I fly helicopters and we fly at altitudes that airplanes should really never be at. I regularly fly around wires, poles, towers, etc IN AREAS I AM FAMILAR WITH. I would never go to a strange area and fly down the river at 50' with out first making several overflights to look for obstructions. It took me a long time to develop that 6th sense where you can really spot wires. You look for poles, towers, right of ways, etc.

In an area I know and have just checked to see if there were anywires strung last night or this morning, go low, its fun. Of course I have already made a decision that if I have an engine failure that there is NO CHANCE of a succesful autorotation. I also don't do that with passengers.

I've tried to teach my son who is learning to fly that in a SPLIT SECOND you can go from a great day in the sun to an absolute disaster. A close friend had a teenage son who was swimming in a lake near shore in 20' of water with friends. His aunt was acting as life guard on "JetSki". As she was manouvering, she bumped him and never knew she hit him. She broke his neck, and he went straight to the bottom. He didn't survive. It changed EVERYONE's LIFE in the family forever. A bit slower on the JetSki, watch a bit better, a bit more space and he'd still be here.

Here, the pilot tossed out the "standard of care" and deviated into an area that was unsafe and someone got killed because of it. He's getting a felony, possibly a few years jail time, loss of his job and a lawsuit. The lawsuit will probably take everything he has. Worst of all, the day started out with the best of intentions....................

Just THINK and THINK several steps ahead.................

Mark H

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:00 pm 
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It is truly a tragedy. A guy with great intentions and a passenger with great expectations. How sad.

Bottom line is, you have to be smarter than the tools you work with. The PIC MUST know his abilities and limitations. You must not and cannot lose sight of that fact. You cannot allow your ego or enthusiasm to get in the way of your judgement. It is well documented that most general aviation accidents are caused by poor judgment by the PIC.

It is also true that you cannot waive your own rights. When I was driving sprint cars, we signed a waiver to protect the promoter and race track owner, but it was proven over and over again by relatives of my comrades that paid the ultimate price, we as the drivers did not have the right to sign away our rights. Aircraft incidents must be the same.

Bottom line is, don't be braver than "Dick Tracy" either as a pilot or as a passenger. Know your abilities and those of your pilot. There are many I will fly with with unconditional trust. There are those I wouldn't be comfortable in their hangar. 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:15 pm 
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Mark Wrote:

Quote:
Here, the pilot tossed out the "standard of care" and deviated into an area that was unsafe and someone got killed because of it. He's getting a felony, possibly a few years jail time, loss of his job and a lawsuit. The lawsuit will probably take everything he has. Worst of all, the day started out with the best of intentions....................

Just THINK and THINK several steps ahead.................


No doubt about it. One of the things to think about as a pilot, is that each day is a different day from a pilot skill standpoint. When I was a young military attack pilot I had a much poorer understanding of this aspect of my personal flying ability. I am much better at understanding when I am fatigued of just not with my "A" game now that I have 25 years of experience, and I adjust what I am willing to do accordingly. Never pushing safe practices or rules, just crosswinds, formations etc.

I gave a lot of Skyraider rides last year. I had already made the decision that I will not be doing the same this year. Doesn't mean I won't give any rides, just fewer and only to people that I know. A couple of airshow promoters have tried to make a ride or two a requirement to book their show in 2008. I have already passed on participating if that's an absolute requirement. I think I get the ride request more than most because I have the 6 seat version.

Lastly, its a nice thought that some of you have requested that your relatives not sue, but if you were me, would you stake your future on the hope that they respect your wishes after you're injured or killed in my airplane? A morbid thought, but something to consider.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:32 pm 
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I have read with interest all of the postings thus far, and I agree to an extent as to what P51Mstg said about being familiar with the area in which you are flying in. However, it is incumbent on the aviatior to do a proper preflight planning, and note obstructions/obsticales in his area of operation. Had the pilot done this, and went on a familiarization flight to see the area in which he would be operating in, confirm and note obstructions etc, he would not be in the deep s hite he is currently experiancing. Also the point was already brought up,.....were the wires that crossed the river marked with the bright orange marker balls, and what were their proximity to the airport?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:43 pm 
My father took the passenger seat out of his Swift about 6 years ago, to make certain he would never take anyone up flying with him. he had just turned 80 years old. But he never took anyone up for about 6 years before that. The last time I flew with my dad was about 15 years ago. A man's gotta know his limitations, especially with airplanes. IMHO


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