Warbird Information Exchange

the missle systems were removed from those AC by the factroy techs that were in country servicing the planes when we got the iron boot....no systems = no way to survive in combat. (although I prefer guns myself)

At least on the web a number of sources indicate that the Russians or Chinese may have worked with Iran to put new systems into the aircraft including missile capabilities. Also, there do seem to be indications that the Iranians are capable of manufacturing at least some of the parts. Frankly, I suspect that most Americans underestimate their capability. I think Randy's got it right.

Amen

Ryan

the missle systems were removed from those AC by the factroy techs that were in country servicing the planes when we got the iron boot....no systems = no way to survive in combat. (although I prefer guns myself)

It is very hard to figure out just what Iran has or does not have. They engage in a lot of propaganda and disinformation.

Sometime in the 1980s the CIA arranged for a Tomcat and two Phantoms to defect to Iraq. The Tomcat and one Phantom flew on to Saudi Arabia to be inspected. One Phantom was so unsafe the American pilots wouldn't fly it and it remained there until it was destroyed in the American attacks in 2003. There were photos on the web.

I have heard that the latest F-18 pilots found fighting against the Tomcat akin to clubbing baby seals.

When I was a brand-new F-15E pilot, I had the opportuity to fly against an F-14A in a 1 v 1. I was surprisingly able to kick the snot out of him. Three years later, I had a similar 1 v 1 opportunity against an F-14D -- this time I was the one getting the crap beat out of him. IMHO, the D Model Tomcat is a pretty good fighter -- good engines and good radar -- that still suffers from some of the limitations of the Tomcat airframe (like numbers of places to hang ordnance, where the targeting pod is mounted, overall G limit, etc). It didn't carry the AMRAAM (the A model), so it suffered in the medium range BVR arena significantly (don't let the Phoenix fanboys convince you otherwise...).

I would NEVER underestimate anyone I was fighting, including an F-14A, because you can get the tar beat outta you by darn near any piece of equipment, depending on what the scenario is and who is flying it....

When I flew AT-38s, you would not believe the number of times I "killed" F-16s and F-15s in air-to-air engagements, even though I had no radar and no medium-range missile capability. Why? The T-38 is small visually and has a small radar cross section. If you can slip in un-noticed and turn the battle into a gunfight at close range, the odds change significantly. Even better, if you can get into a shot position WITHOUT BEING SEEN, you're in REALLY good shape, and that's what happened most times with the AT-38.

I am never prone to just scoffing a potential enemy outright because he is not a technologically advanced. That was a mistake we made with the North Vietnamese, and you can see how that worked out for us.

If anyone wants to beat their chest and think that it would be a cakewalk to just roll into Iran and eliminate their Air Force in the first day, they're entitled to that opinion. I happen to think that's a pretty ignorant opinion, though.

Would the US win militarily against Iran? No doubt in my mind. Would it be a cakewalk? I dunno...why don't you go ask some Desert Storm vets if the Iraqi Air Force was a pushover in 1991. Although the US did not have any confirmed air-air losses (Scott Speicher, perhaps), I'll bet you a case of Heineken that every pilot that shot down an Iraqi had a pulse going through the roof and was playing his top A game....he wasn't just relaxing, smoking a Lucky, and saying "awww, these Iraqis are a bunch of Amateurs." Same goes for Operation Allied Force, where F-15Cs bagged a few more MiGs. Were the Serbians a bunch of Clowns? Yes...but the US pilots flew as if they were going up against the best MiG-29 pilots in the world.

Listen to the recording of "Dirk" flight that is available for download here on the Internet...it's the two F-15Cs that shot down two MiG-29s in Allied Force. All you have to do is listen to the tone of the pilots' voices over the radio to know that they are operating at a very high level and are....well, scared isn't the right word. Perhaps anxious is a better word.

Anyway, if something bad happens and the US finds itself poised to take up arms against Iran in the next couple years, I will probably be there. I won't be thinking to myself, "Aww, these punks are just armed with a couple dilapidated Tomcats and some old Phantoms and MiGs and stuff. What a friggin' cake walk."

No, I'll be "anxious". Probably even scared, because you never know when an enemy -- even one who is not as well trained or equipped -- could whip out a sucker punch that could send me home to my family in a flag-draped casket.

You simply HAVE to respect your enemies until they prove themselves unworthy of that respect. Otherwise, your pride will be your downfall.

Okay, to get the story closer to correct, contract workers from Hughes (the maker of the AWG-9 radar in the F-14A) are reported to have smashed as many AWG-9 circuit cards as they could in the jets/radars that they had access to. This took place in a very short period of time after the fall of the Shah and before they had to leave the country.

Nobody seems to know publicly how many cards were smashed, to what degree they were destroyed, or how many jets had cards destroyed from them.

Any reasonably technologically advanced country could easily re-engineer such circuit cards.

In no way does the story mean that the airplanes have "no systems" or "no way to survive in combat".



Very, very true. Best words yet spoken on the subject. Even the "experts" here on the interweb are subject to such unknowns.



So...the Phantom was in Saudi Arabia....and it was destroyed in "American attacks in 2003"? I was part of the opening salvo of Shock and Awe in 2003, and we didn't bomb Saudi Arabia. Am I missing something here?



Depends on the scenario. I have gunned F-15s from a T-38 before, and it was as easy as seal clubbing, too. I have both wiped the floor with a Tomcat, and been the subject of such a floor-wiping at the hands of another Tomcat.

Here is what I posted on the subject a couple years ago:

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=14172



Summary of my opinion on Iranian F-14s, and the tendency that some Americans -- none of whom will ever be called to actually fight one of them -- have to completely discount them as US-jet-fodder. It's pretty darn easy to have such bravado when you will never have to put your own pink American body at risk against one.

Mute is fine too, because it means muted. That's exactly what it means to me, so I'll say it. I can use any adjective I want so long as it is in the dictionary, and it has a meaning. There you go.

Sorry, I'm the decider- the arbiter of adjectives. Next time anyone wants to use an adjective around here they better ask me first!

the missle systems were removed from those AC by the factroy techs that were in country servicing the planes when we got the iron boot....no systems = no way to survive in combat. (although I prefer guns myself)