Warbird Information Exchange

P.S.: I read an old report by Walter Eichhorn last week, probably the most experienced past WW II pilot on Bf 109 and Buchons. He stated, he would always use grass if possible, paved runway only if it could not be avoided. And paved runway and crosswinds would be a no go.[/quote]


That's funny, most of the videos I've seen with Eichorn in a 109 are on a paved runway! The J-3 Cub was made to land on grass too, but can also land on pavement....as long as the conditions are right. I'll bet the Spit was made for grass as well. Admittitly easier than a 109 but see them on pavement all the time.

That's funny, most of the videos I've seen with Eichorn in a 109 are on a paved runway! The J-3 Cub was made to land on grass too, but can also land on pavement....as long as the conditions are right. I'll bet the Spit was made for grass as well. Admittitly easier than a 109 but see them on pavement all the time.[/quote]
109 has a really different landing gear as far as angles, the camber and toe of the wheel. It might be a bit toe out IIRC but it has been awhile. I helped tow the POF G model a ways down the ramp backwards once at Chino and it really scuffed the tires. The other issue with the 109 was the Gear Mounting part was easy to bend or break.
Spit handles very well on runways thank you. The Spit changed MLG design as the weight of the A/C design changed. They were slamming them onto carriers as well. I don't think a ME-109 would do well with that.
The Cub also does fine on runways. Put the Grove brakes on them and you can even do a runup to full power.

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!

I don't understand. If the 109 IS so difficult on pavement, why are they flying the impossible taildragger on paved runways? (including Eichorn who apparently won't unless only as a "last resort") Thats all I'm saying. I DON'T believe it's a bad as it's made out to be. Eichorn was even flying the Buchon off pavement at Hahnweide 2010 and I remember seeing at least 1 Buchon at Duxford using the pavement when all the Spits were landing in the grass....he didn't groundloop either. I've also seen countless videos of Mark Hanna flying the Buchon off pavement. He never groundlooped it as far as I know. If the stats are right one would expect a groundloop and total loss of the aircraft every 3rd landing right? I think of the 109 as the Gee Bee. As the years go by the stories get progressivly worse and blown out of proportion. The gear on the late G models as well as the K was upgraded as weights increased just like the spit. The 109T was designed for carrier use as well.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which causes the 109 groundlooping tendencies and problems on the ground, is the fact that it's CoG is way aft of the main gear. (No such problems of a nose over in the 109/Buchon - infact, you have to push the stick forward and apply power & then brake in the direction of the turn to get it to do so). Coupled with the undercarridge geometry, the rear CoG makes it a rather difficult aircraft to land and taxi.

I have a detailed account by Sir John Alison describing what it is like to fly the Spitfire, 109, & Hurricane, and he goes into detail about how each aircraft handle on the ground, and the 109 comes bottom. I'll have to dig it out sometime, as it makes good reading.

Btw, on the DVD 'One Summer, Two Messerschmitts', I seem to recall there is footage of 'Black 6' landing on the grass at Duxford, and it very nearly scrapes a wingtip.

Cheers

Paul

For almost all flying today is on runways. there isn't an alternative.
In the late 80s at POF there was months of effort to return Bubba Beal's HA back to flight status. We put a 3 blade prop on, A-26 Spinner and reconfigured the cowling to make it present more like a 109. It was better looking by far than most of the Merlin powered ones around. Steve Hinton replaced the original brakes with a modified P-51 set up to give it better brakes.
It was flown for the opening of the annual POF Airshow at Chino that year. Really cool formation of a P-51D, Spit Mk XIV, Zero and the 109 look a like. After all that effort I don't believe it was flown again until the filming of Pearl Harbor. The experienced Warbird pilots really didn't like it. It sat for many years on display. Another restorer up in Calif spent years rebuilding one as his passion. He flew for a very short period of time, Had others fly it for him and then sold it to Europe.
I don't believe anyone is suggesting every third flight is the odds. Just that every one flying has had at least one landing accident. And most accidents didn't total the aircraft. But the gear mount is the weak link and easy to tweak or crack.
Jim talks of getting one every now and again. Really not looking forward to that in the hangar. I've seen the 2 seater down in TX. Extra ugly or Fuggly in my opinion.
This is one of those types that is to each his own. Different strokes for different folks. But it isn't for the faint of heart and won't be a real easy flying warbird to operate from what I've experienced.

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!

Regarding landings, Mark Hanna mentioned that it was impossible to predict ahead of time what the aircraft was going to do on roll-out. A spot-on perfect three-pointer might turn into disaster half-way through rolling down the runway, while a "ropey" landing might roll out straight as an arrow. It just demands 100% attention. From Paul's post above, I came to recall remembering back to last summer, when one of the Duxford-based Buchons (G-AWHE) had a very, very minor wingtip buffing on one of its take-offs early in the season. (It's any wonder that no one has ever just done as they did with the Curtiss Jenny or Fokker Dr.1, and just put some form of protection under those wingtips! )

I 'believe' in the UK, Buchons are required by the CAA to have a placard fitted in the cockpit that warns that terrible consequences may occur if you land the aircraft in crosswinds of 10-kts or greater.

that'd be this one:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1201946983

I laughed out loud at your description of the two seater, but for some reason I've always found it to be one of the nicest-looking of the Spanish 109's; this shot especially I remember staring at for hours as a kid (in b&w format in the ancient ARCO book):

http://www.maquetland.com/v2/images_art ... 112M4L.jpg


Some good profiles here, including it in it's BoB paint scheme:

http://flyingart.twoday.net/topics/Profiles/

I've read the Me109G-12 was an absolute terror to fly in, especially from the rear; hopefully this one was a bit better experience.

greg v.

The problem in the video is not the aircraft but the pilot's technique. He's coming in "On Profile" when a gust from a thermal blows the right wing up, erasing his wind correcting aileron input. Then he goes into a defensive posture of wings level, keep decelerating and hope for the best. He is carrying a few extra knots as evidenced by the floating when entering ground effect.
Ground effect causes aircraft to float initially, then the sink rate increases causing him to get out of his landing posture. ALso, if you have a right crosswind the right wing should always be down to some degree. Only if you have gotten right of runway would you ever level the wings momentarily.
If you review the video, you will see a piece of black cloth on a speaker stand start blowing profusely (estimated 4-6 knot. increase) indicating a sudden and unpredictable increase in right crosswind component. This is what blows the aircraft , which is floating wings level, onto its left wing.
The proper technique when this happens is to a) go around. b) cobb the power and try again a couple thousand feet down the runway if it's a long runway c) go around and land farther down the runway where the thermal, or wind isn't, or d) push hard right and down on the stick and pin the right tire aggressively to the runway. Then allow the left wheel to ease down upon decelerating, kicking some right rudder the moment the left wheel touches.
THe pilot did a brilliant job, of fighting and regaining control over the airplane, first by tracking a straight line, and not obsessing about getting back over to the runway. This is why he didnt ground loop and tear the gear out from under it. Second, he shut the engine down so fast, if the gear would have collapsed , the engine would not have been damaged.

this maybe a little off topic, but sense there was talk of the two seat HA-1112, what is the story with the large number of HA-1112' listed on http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/ as being in Big Springs Texas? sorry if i am a little off topic.

Travis

_________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74595482@N04/

Travis

Connie Edwards has (had?) quite a few ex-Battle of Britain movie Buchons in Texas (including the two seater mentioned above), according to this older thread:

viewtopic.php?t=11006

Unfortunately quite a few of the photos are no longer linked. From what I understand the whole stash is for sale, or at least was at some point. Others will know more about this than I I'm sure. Great stash, that's for sure!

cheers

greg v.

gregv,

Thanks for the link. I should've done a search on here first. Again, thanks for the help.

Travis

_________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74595482@N04/

Photos from a visit that Gary Austin arranged several years back.

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!

thanks Rich! Great shots!

Looks like a time-capsule from the BoB filming, I wonder how much (if any) it was flown afterwards. Was it even re-assembled after being shipped Stateside?

Also looks like the Spanish version of the "tall tail" might have been made in metal, as opposed to the German wartime wood unit. With only two built (according to the ever-trustful Wikipedia), this is one rare aircraft; hopefully someone will give it some love in the near future.

Thanks for the pics!

greg v.

I like the Rotol 4 bladed prop ready for action there. Always thought it looked cool.
Chris...